In his book The Truth War, popular pastor and author, John MacArthur has taken on what he considers several departures from “the faith once for all delivered to the saints” (his book is really a treatment of Jude 1-5 in light of what he considers contemporary challenges to the ancient faith).
In this book, he takes on not only the likes of McLaren but TD Jakes, even though he doesn’t mention him by name. You see, TD Jakes is a Oneness Pentecostal and a best-selling author. So after pointing out the heretical elements of Sabellianism from a historical perspective on pp. 100-102, MacArthur returns a few pages later with the following:
Sabellianism, for instance, has made a strong comeback. The hallmark of “Oneness Pentecostalism” is a denial of the Trinity and a view of the Godhead that is indistinguishable from ancient Sabellianism. Yet many—perhaps most—in the evangelical movement today are perfectly willing to ignore the lessons from Scripture and history, set aside the whole disagreement as something entirely nonessential, and embrace contemporary Sabellianism as a legitimate expression of authentic Christian faith. For at least a decade now, evangelical best-seller lists have included a steady stream of works by authors and musicians who deny the doctrine of the Trinity. (p. 117)
Is One Pentecostalism really a denial of the Trinity? Is it really a heresy? Is TD Jakes really a heretic even though he writes and preaches about the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit?
I need some clarity on this one.
Yes.
Yes.
Yes.
I disagree with Macarthur .I am a oneness pentecostal and I do believe the doctrine of the oneness pentcostals.Study it out for yourself don’t let some bestselling author tell you that it is wrong.
O i Studied it for years it is the dumbest, pagan, Jesus Christ hating cult I ever seen. you make Jehovah wittnessess seem like there are on the up and up.
God is Triune
Praise the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
Three, Distinct, but yet, the One and Only Lord God of Isreal.
Yes on all counts.
Yeah, what Stan said!
Guys, I need some explanation on this one. How exact must a person be on the Trinity?
Its hugly important, if you deny Gods Triunity, you deny Jesus.
Arm5, Do you mind telling us why TD Jakes is not a heretic for his view of the Trinity?
TD Jakes denies the Trinity.
CRI has an article that provides a little bit of information.
There is also a followup article.
Sorry I can’t help but interesting Google entry:
TD Jakes: TD Jakes
2008 T. D. Jakes, For ministry information, or to make a donation visit T. D. Jakes Ministries », For entertainment and empowerment …
http://www.tdjakes.com/
Jeff
TC: It’s not a matter of being “exact” on the Trinity, but rather in this situation it’s a matter of knowing what classical trinitarian theology espouses and denying it in favor of something else. T. D. Jakes knows better and chooses to reject the Trinity anyway. In fact, he doesn’t care that much. He says that his focus is on ministering to people and not trying to figure out the mysteries of the faith (my paraphrase). In his mind, it’s not all that important what one believes about God. I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, what we believe about God makes the difference between true worship and idolatry. This stuff is important!
The thing about Oneness Pentecostals is that even if they don’t know anything about the doctrine of the Trinity, they (should) know what it is they do believe, and what they do believe isn’t orthodox (i.e., that Jesus is both Father and Son).
Just stumbled on to ur interesting post today, Nick. And I must commend u in yielding ur vessel to be used (of God) to be an advocate of the “faith.” [Jude 1:3] If u will. allow me to zero in on [Col 2:9] re. “In Him dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily” and [Matt 3:16-17] which speaks of (1) the spirit of God descending like a dove upon (2) the Son …and the “voice” of (3) God (the Father) saying, “This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.” to contribute to ur treatise on the certainty of the eternal existence of, what has been revealed to us, who believe, to be the ‘trinity.’ Selah.
Also, you might want to check out the posts in my Oneness Pentecostal category, here & here.
To be honest with you We shouldn’t be judging T.d. Jakes on whether or not if he is a heretic. The reason why I don’t believe that he his a heretic is because first of the trinity is a false doctrine.
Arm 5, Gods Triunity is not false.
you are a pagan, the bible says the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God, yet the Father spoke of His Son, the Son prayed and spoke about His Father over 200 times in the bible, and both Spoke about the Holy Spirit who reveals the Father and the Son.
So being we have Three called God, yet we have only One God.
God is Triune.
So go play scrabble or something, teaching people truth is not your calling.
arm5: Actually, judging Jakes’ doctrine and declaring him a heretic is exactly what we should be doing. The apostle Paul said:
And the doctrine of the Trinity is far from false. It’s the disinctive Christian doctrine of God. I’d urge you to research it and turn from your own heretical beliefs.
I’m not interested in engaging in debate on this issue, but as some of you know I attend a Oneness Pentecostal Church. I find myself increasingly dissatisfied with the church’s doctrine, and more and more drawn to the Trinitarian description of God. However, my situation is an incredible struggle on several levels (the least of which is theologically related), and it would certainly mean a lot if you all would pray for me/my family/my friends… or the United Pentecostal Church in general, for that matter.
I realize that some of you feel very strongly about this issue–as you should–but I encourage you to approach it full of compassion for these people (of which, at the moment, I am one of), and not simply a desire to “prove a heretic wrong.” Please don’t misunderstand me, I’m not saying that you guys have that particular mindset; but a lot people come off that way.
I also realize that Oneness believers often times come off the same way; but please, have patience when engaging in discussion with them. You have to understand that most Oneness believers were born into a Oneness church, have been taught Oneness doctrine all their life, and have probably never been properly exposed to Trinitarian theology. In most cases, it’s simply a presupposition–which, even in the face of legitimate criticism, is a very difficult thing to let go of.
Anyways, sorry to ramble on here, but this is an issue that’s near and dear to my heart. The UPC is rife with people who sincerely desire to serve God, people who have an intense longing for truth–as misled as they may be. Pray for them, pray for me.
Blake, I pray you follow the Holy Spirit right out of that church.
Oneness is not of God, just read the bible. to me you seem like your displaced, I pray Jesus brings you back home.
God is Triune. pray on this, because Oneness is of the devil, i promise you.
Nick, What do the Oneness folks build their position on? I find it interesting that Jakes is not willing to exert the mental energy to get it right. I guess for him it’s no big deal.
Arm5, we’ll like to know why you consider the Trinity false?
Blake, thanks for sharing. Yes, we are gentle around here on some issues.
I know others are going to be praying about the situation. I believe we need to be patient with each other as we discuss these crucial doctrines.
T.C.,
Whilst oneness pentecostalism doesn’t have much of a presence in my country, it certainly seems like T.D. Jakes denies orthodox trinitarian doctrine from his statements and website.
I’m interested in Nick’s answer to your question ‘What do oneness folks build their position on?’
And more importantly, what should our reactions to heretical beliefs be? I would be inclined to attempt to educate them; this means we must know the correct doctrine extremely well. But I’d beware judging those who believe wrongly – often they simply believe what they’ve been taught.
And where is the line between disagreement and heresy? Is it historical rejection of doctrine? It’s not heretical to believe premillennial eschatology nor amillennial eschatology, yet they are vastly different understandings of God’s word. How do we decide what is heresy and what is not?
Blake,
Once again I find myself suggesting Robert Letham’s book: The Holy Trinity
Classic Oneness doctrine can be classed as historic modalistic monarchianism, or in layman’s terms, the belief that God manifested himself in different modes at different times. 99% of Oneness doctrine statements read something like this: There is one God, Creator of all things, infinitely perfect, and eternally existing in three Manifestations: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.. The Bible doesn’t teach three manifestations – it clearly teaches three, independent persons, united fully as one God.
Oneness Pentecostalism is heresy on some many different levels. The most obvious one is the Godhead, but then there is the heresy of baptismal regeneration, the requirement that one must speak in tongues to be regenerate and in some Oneness circles, a very legalistic works-righteousness code of “do’s and don’ts”.
It is a heresy and John MacArthur was write to call it out as such in The Truth War, a copy of which I just read I have read recently.
Blake,
Let me second Richard’s recommendation regarding The Holy Trinity.
I recently purchased it via Nick’s site. I’ve only finished introduction (and what an introduction!) and first chapter but am confident in recommending it. It looks fantastic. Pleasant tone. Well documented. Thorough.
*Disclaimer: This is going to be a long one.*
Blake: I understand your dillemma and I’d be happy to pray about it. I’m a Pentecostal of the Trinitarian variety but I know almost as many Oneness believers as I do Trinitarian, and I’ve been engaged in dialogue with members of the Oneness camp for just about as long as I’ve been saved. Many a prayer from my mouth has gone before God on their behalf.
My desire when approaching this issue isn’t merely “proving a heretic wrong,” but rather defending the faith and presenting those who hold heretical beliefs with correctives to those beliefs. At the end of the day, I could care less about winning the debate, I’m more concerned with sowing seeds of truth (whether they take root immediately or not is not up to me).
TC: At the heart of Oneness theology is “monotheism.” There’s an intense desire to preserve the “oneness of God” but to the detriment of preserving the distinctions in God. When speaking with Oneness believers you’ll find a lot of appeals to the Fourth Gospel (esp. Jo. 10:30; 14:9). They have no problem affirming the deity of Christ, but to admit that he’s a person distinct from the Father is tantamount to polytheism in Oneness thought.
One of my major criticisms of Oneness Christology has always been that it devolves into Nestorianism (i.e. the belief that Jesus was two persons). The reason I say this is because they believe “the Father” to be the divine nature of Jesus, while “the Son” is the human nature. The problem is that in Scipture “the Father” and “the Son” interact with each other in a very personal manner. So while a Oneness believer would never affirm that Jesus is “two persons,” they’re Christology yields these results nonetheless.
As far as Jakes goes, you’re right, for him it’s not a big deal. It’s like my post from the other day where I talked about how it bothers me that people try to play right action against right doctrine and act as if action is all that matters. T. D. Jakes does great things for his community, but so does Louis Farrakhan. So does Sun Yung Moon. The problem is that they aren’t feeding their people right beliefs, which would influence right action anyway.
Damian: Indeed, they believe what they have been taught, but then again, who doesn’t? My question is how far do we take this idea of granting a “pass” for wrong beliefs? Does it extend to those of Eastern religions like Buddhism and Hindusim? Do Mormons and Jehovah’s Witnesses get the same leeway? How about Muslims? I believe that any rejection of the triune God in favor of something else is pure idolatry, plain and simple.
As far as defining heresy is concerned, the beautiful thing about being part of an historic body of faith such as the Church of Jesus Christ, is that it’s already been defined for us. There’s no need to reinvent the wheel. Now in my opinion, the main reason that something was defined as heresy in the early Church was because it was an afront to God’s saving purposes. Theology/Christology was always connected to soteriology.
Modalistic belief makes God’s saving purposes a sham. Jesus’ prayers to the Father on behalf of believers fell on def ears because Jesus was the Father. In effect, Modalism takes away the mediator between God and man. It’s also to say that Father didn’t really send his Son into the world to die for our sins. When Tertullian mocks Praxeas saying:
He’s effectively saying that the modalistic God died on the cross. But how can a God who dies save anyone unless we have some multi-personal understanding of him? With Arian belief, the problem was that the savior was thought to be a creature. But how can a creature in need of redemption redeem anyone?
Douglas: You are correct concerning the other things that are wrong with Oneness Pentecostal belief. I’d highlight that all of these things are tied up with their theology proper. The Oneness belief that baptism is to be administered in Jesus’ name only was a catalyst for their denial of the Trinity and separation from the Assemblies of God. When comparing the baptismal texts in the book of Acts with Matthew 28:19 it was concluded that Jesus was the “name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit.” Of course because those in Acts who were newly saved and filled with the Holy Spirit spoke in tongues, the early Oneness believers saw this as an evidence of their salvation, rather than as evidence of a subsequent baptism with the Holy Spirit as classical Pentecostalism maintained.
Everyone: Let me third Richard and Stan’s recommendation of Letham’s book. It is the best book on the Trinity that I’ve ever read! I will say that it’s not for beginners, but if you have some foundation in the doctrine then definitely pick it up and give it a read!
Thank you for your perspective Blake.
Jeff
[...] An Affront to God’s Saving Purpose I said this in a comment on TC’s blog, but it bears [...]
And where is the line between disagreement and heresy? Is it historical rejection of doctrine? It’s not heretical to believe premillennial eschatology nor amillennial eschatology, yet they are vastly different understandings of God’s word. How do we decide what is heresy and what is not?
Damian, I believe Scripture establishes what the heresies are. A rejection of the true nature of Christ is one of those (1 John-2 John).
They have no problem affirming the deity of Christ, but to admit that he’s a person distinct from the Father is tantamount to polytheism in Oneness thought.
So they need an education in the math department on the Trinity. Yes, I admire their effort at preserving monotheism, but it seems like on their own terms and not what Scripture reveals.
As far as Jakes goes, you’re right, for him it’s not a big deal. It’s like my post from the other day where I talked about how it bothers me that people try to play right action against right doctrine and act as if action is all that matters. T. D. Jakes does great things for his community, but so does Louis Farrakhan. So does Sun Yung Moon. The problem is that they aren’t feeding their people right beliefs, which would influence right action anyway.
I believe we get so caught in the “good” that these people do that we forget to question their belief system.
Damian, I just read Nick’s corresponding post, and I believe he answers the question of what we should consider a heresy. Check it out here!
Is One Pentecostalism really a denial of the Trinity? Is it really a heresy? Is TD Jakes really a heretic even though he writes and preaches about the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit?
==Yes, it is a denial of the Trinity. Technically TD Jakes believes in modalism. On the surface modalism “seems” to affirm the Trinity. However when one digs deep enough one sees that it is a denial of the Trinity. Most modalist believe in the Deity of our Lord Jesus Christ. According to modalism there is only one God. This God is known as the Father, Son, or Holy Spirit at different points in Biblical history. Scholars would say that modalists believe that the “titles” or “names”, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are “successive revelations” of the one God. So, according to men like Jakes, there is only one God who is only one Person. Of course that differs from the Trinity. The Trinity is the idea that there is one God who is three, distinct, co-equal, and co-eternal persons. While the three persons of the Godhead are one God, they are three distinct persons. I believe the Trinity is clearly implied and taught in Scripture. Any direct denial of the Trinity is error. Modalism is error and anyone who holds to it is in error. Will modalists burn in hell for their error (is it heresy)? I don’t know, but I would not advise anyone to try to find out (if you get my drift).
As for Jakes himself, I have never cared much for his unBiblical teachings and ministry. His modalism is just another one of his many errors.
In Christ,
Martin.
Martin, I believe most of us agree with your assessment of modalism and the heretical teaching of TD Jakes.
MacArthur wrote:
What works does he have in mind? Only those of Jakes and associates, explicitly Oneness Pentecostals? Or does he claim that some who consider themselves Trinitarian and evangelical deny the Trinity? If so, who?
What works does he have in mind? Only those of Jakes and associates, explicitly Oneness Pentecostals? Or does he claim that some who consider themselves Trinitarian and evangelical deny the Trinity? If so, who?
==He is referring to people who are on “evangelical best-seller lists” but who are not evangelical. TD Jakes is not the only modalist out there today. There are other people like him in the charismatic, tv-preacher, health and wealth movement. In the musical arena I think of people like Phillips Craig and Dean, and southern gospel singer Joel Hemphill who has written a book called “To God Be The Glory” in which he directly denies the Deity of Christ (etc). So he is a oneness teacher who is worse than a modalist. I have exchanged e-mails with Mr. Hemphill and I assure you he is very much hostile towards those who teach the Biblical doctrine of the Trinity. People like Hemphill, Phillips Craig and Dean, TD Jakes, and others are very popular among certain groups of evangelicals. They are spreading their teachings in the church. That, my friend, is very dangerous.
I don’t know if modalists go to hell but I do believe that those who deny the Deity of our Lord do. This, as I am sure everyone here agrees, is a very serious issue.
With the internet, tv, and radio the following statement is more true than ever before:
“test the spirits to see whether they are from God” -1Jn 4:1
Martin.
The only major musician I know of who’s Oneness is Jonny Lang.
Is anyone familiar with Greg Boyd’s book, Oneness Pentecostals And The Trinity? I’m particularly interested in it, since he came from a Oneness background… but I haven’t heard much about it.
Oh, and thanks for the recs guys. I’ll be sure and check out The Holy Trinity.
Peter, I believe Martin has answered your questions.
Martin, thanks for the info.
Blake, I’m not up on that work. I’m just starting to read Boyd.
Thanks, Martin and Blake. Well, I’m glad that the only named best-selling author on the list is Jakes himself – unless you are suggesting that Hemphill’s book is a best seller among evangelicals which is unlikely. But which other “people like him in the charismatic, tv-preacher, health and wealth movement” are you suggesting are modalists, and do you have any proof of this? I don’t care too much about the theology of musicians if their lyrics are not heretical.
Peter: There’s also best selling author (of The God Chasers; Hadassah: One Night With the King) Tommy Tenney. After reading his statement of faith which says:
I contacted him a few years ago to clear up any confusion about his possibly being a modalist and was met with the reply that he “refuses to debate doctrine.” But Tenney’s involvement with the UPCI is well documented, and if memory serves correctly, I believe his father is still a pastor in the movement.
To the list I’d add the popular TBN preacher Bishop Noel Jones, as well as Juanita Bynum, and her ex-husband Thomas Weeks, III who was ordained by the Pentecostal Assemblies of the World which is “one of the oldest interracial Oneness penetecostal organizations.” (The New International Dictionary of Pentecostal and Charismatic Movements, [Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 2002], 965.)
Yup, the poison of the Oneness movement is all over the Christian world. BTW Nick, don’t forget Phillips, Craig and Dean – the musicians…
Perhaps, Douglas, it would be more accurate to say that this “poison” is “all over the Christian USA”. Here in the UK I have not heard of any of the names mentioned, except for a little about Jakes, and of course Boyd who doesn’t seem to hold this doctrine.
By the way, Douglas, I am aware that you are British, and from not far from me in Hackney (I am in Chelmsford). I don’t know where you have come across these authors, but not I think in regular Christian bookshops, although perhaps in the somewhat separate black Pentecostal circles in London, some of which may lean towards Oneness theology.
“I’m glad that the only named best-selling author on the list is Jakes himself – unless you are suggesting that Hemphill’s book is a best seller among evangelicals which is unlikely.”
==O, no. Hemphill’s book is far from a best seller (lets be thankful). However I am concerned that he does have a “built in” audience in some parts of the south because of his music. I had heard of his music before I had heard of his book. So while he is not “famous” he does carry some influence, mainly in southern gospel circles.
“But which other “people like him in the charismatic, tv-preacher, health and wealth movement” are you suggesting are modalists, and do you have any proof of this?”
==One of the problems with many of these people is that they don’t come out and state their theology. Any statement of faith on their website is generic and they rarely say what college/seminary they attended or what denomination they are a part of. They just pop up on TBN and a few months later they are famous. In order to know which ones deny the Trinity, as Jesus only oneness or as modalists, you have to research them carefully.
Tommy Tenney, popular author, preacher, and movie producer with TBN, has a UPC (oneness) background and is a modalist himself. On his website called “godchasers” his statement of faith says: “There is one God, Creator of all things, infinitely perfect, and eternally existing in three Manifestations: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit”. That is classical modalist language. On the surface it looks like a Trinity affirming statement. However look at it carefully. It does NOT affirm that there is one God who is three eternal, co-equal, but distinct persons. It says that there is one God who has manifested Himself in three different ways. That is modalism.
Juanita Bynum, popular TBN preacher and singer, is another. However she has maintained something of a low profile since her divorce and her website contains nothing but contact information. So it is difficult to get a clear understanding on her doctrine. However he fifteen minutes of fame were given to her by the famous modalist himself, TD Jakes.
There are others, but I don’t want to write a book on TC’s blog. Just look some of the famous TBN type folks up. Look at their statement of faith, IF one is provided, and read it carefully. You might be surprised at some of the people that TBN is allowing on its airwaves (and Christian bookstores allowing on their shelves).
In Christ,
Martin.
My post only mirrors what Nick had already said. Sorry for repeating what had already been said, I did not read all the replies before responding to Peter’s question. Let’s just say I AMEN what Nick has said.
Sorry Nick and TC!
Martin.
Douglas: Yes, Phillips, Craig, and Dean are also Oneness Pentecostals. I believe Martin mentioned that earlier. I’ve never been a fan of their music so I wasn’t too affected by the discovery.
Martin: No worries. Reinforcement never hurts.
Peter: I suspect that many people in the UK know these names quite well, because TBN has a large audience all over the globe. If you have DirecTV then just flip to TBN sometime (it’s channel 372 here) and it won’t take very long to run across some of these folks.
And I don’t frequent Christian bookshops very often (I opt for cheaper online sellers), but those that I have been in have all had books written by Jakes, Tenney, Jones, and Bynum. I’d imagine that they sell well enough to keep stocking them, but then again I don’t know how well they sell in your neck of the woods.
Peter,
If you go to CLC Bookshop in Holborn (where until recently I did most of my book buying), these authors are there in force – Jakes has several books, as does Tenney and the CD section still has the music of Phillips, Craig and Dean.
Let’s not forget the Trash Bin Network (TBN) which funnels this sewage into homes all over England via Sky Digital.
Martin,
Anyone with the money can get on TBN. Even D. James Kennedy, the famous Presbyterian preacher, and Ray Comfort (of WOTM fame) are on there – hence why it cannot be considered a legitimate Christian station.
If I want to watch American preachers on TV I find God TV the lesser of the evils.
TBN is really not about correct doctrine. Just saying the name of Jesus is enough. Now that’s my observation over the years.
Douglas, I don’t know. I’ve seen Ravi Zacharias there as well. Yes, and I have seen the late D. James Kennedy hosting as well. Good observation.
Martin, no worries. It’s your fingers at the keyboard, not mine.
Peter, I still need to get into GodTube. I’ll have to check it out.
There are plenty of good preachers with shows on TBN, but there are plenty of not so good ones as well. Like my pastor told me long ago, eat the meat and spit the bones out.
Nick, outside of Charismatic Pentecostals, I believe the rest of us have some problems with TBN. And I think they’re legitimate.
“Anyone with the money can get on TBN. Even D. James Kennedy, the famous Presbyterian preacher, and Ray Comfort (of WOTM fame) are on there – hence why it cannot be considered a legitimate Christian station.”
==What was wrong with D. James Kennedy in your opinion? I would say that TBN “cannot be considered a legitimate Christian station” because of Paul & Jan Crouch, Benny Hinn, TD Jakes, Rod Parsley, and the rest of the false teacher parade.
Martin.
Martin,
I loved D. James Kennedy…just not TBN and I believe he damaged his reputation by being on there, as does Ray Comfort.
TC: Plenty of Charismatic/Pentecostals have legitimate problems with TBN as well (me being one of them), but my point is that not all of the ministers who buy time on the network are heretics. There’s some good stuff amidst the bad. You just need to sift through it.
Douglas: Kennedy’s reputation wasn’t hurt. He also bought time on secular television networks; that didn’t hurt him either. I know a great many people who didn’t like what they perceived to be his fundamentalism, but that’s another issue.
But anyone who is going to judge D. James Kennedy (or any other preacher) for wanting to get their message to as large an audience as possible is simply stupid in my opinion. Seeing as how everyone* thinks that TBN is so bad and its viewers so lost, wouldn’t it make sense for the good preachers to appear on their airwaves and preach the truth? Jesus said that healthy people don’t need doctors, sick people do. (Mat. 9:12)
*hyperbolic use of “everyone”*
Doug, Is that the learned Ray Comfort or someone else?
Nick, I got you. So where would someone like Jentzen be?
I’m with you. Well put.
I would consider watching the apostle Paul on TBN.
Short of that…
TC: Yes, I’d include Jentezen Franklin (COG) among the good Pentecostal preachers on TBN. With him I’d include Perry Stone (COG); Jack Hayford (Foursquare); and the late G. E. Patterson (COGIC). Baptists of note are Charles Stanley (who I can’t stand but people seem to love); David Jeremiah; and James Robison. And let’s not forget that TBN regularly broadcast old Billy Graham crusades. Other denominations represented by good preachers are Presbyterians by the aforementioned late D. James Kennedy, and Anglicans by Michael Youseff. So like I said, there are some good preachers on TBN, you just have to look for them. It’s not all Kenneth Copeland and Benny Hinn, ya know?
Stan, I watch that Paul movie and then went out and go it on sale. Guess where?
Nick, yes to most of the names you threw out: Hayford, Stanley, Jeremiah, Robison, Kennedy.
I have mixed feelings about Graham for some reason. Maybe his easy-believism approach. I don’t know much about Stone and the late Patterson.
Youseff seems quite solid.
“I loved D. James Kennedy…just not TBN and I believe he damaged his reputation by being on there, as does Ray Comfort.”
Douglas,
I agree 100%. I had to ask though because I as not sure where you were going in your comment.
Martin.
TC: Truth be told, I’m not a big fan of any of the Baptists mentioned, but I recognize that a lot of people are and consider their teaching to be quite sound (although Robison doesn’t teach much). G. E. Patterson was a genuine joy to listen to. I’d put him in my homiletical top 10. And Perry Stone is just an all around great guy; he sent me like 16 free books when I was newly saved (!), but I really value his character and the balance he exhibits in his ministry. Youseff has some great credentials, but I just like listening to him.
Martin & Douglas: Which do you think damaged Kennedy’s reputation more: (1) Broadcasting his show on TBN, or (2) Perpetuating the nonsensical claim that Darwinism led to the Holocaust? This is a serious question by the way.
Nick,
Many things lead to the Holocaust. So for anyone to say that this one thing, be it Darwinism or anything else, lead to the Holocaust is nonsense.
As for D James Kennedy himself, I think he left us with a mixed reputation. Generally his preaching was very good. He was at his best when he stood behind the holy desk and explained God’s Word to God’s people. His understanding of American history was a bit too idealistic. I think he had been heavily influenced by David Barton and to some degree Parson Weems. Kennedy wanted to believe that most of the founders were true Christians. What he failed to understand was that things might not have been that simple. Going to church, talking about God (or Providence), quoting the Bible, and things like that does not make one a Christian (in the 18th or 21st century). A perfect example of this is how Dr. Kennedy dealt with Thomas Jefferson. In his booklet “What They Believed” he said the following:
“I do not believe we can say Jefferson was a genuine Christian, in the sense of one who has been transformed by the regenerating power of the Holy Spirit and who trusts in the death of Jesus Christ for his salvation. Like millions of church members today, and like you, perhpas, he had never gotten beyond seeing in Christianity anything other than a code of ethics…Jefferson lacked the new birth, but even as a nominal Christian…” -pgs 42-43
If one could get in a time machine and go back and ask Thomas Jefferson if he was a Christian he would no doubt have said “yes”. In fact he believed he was a true Christian. Why? Because he did not believe in what he thought were the “myths” of the Bible (miracles, resurrection, Divinity of Christ, etc). Jefferson was a heretic. Not a nominal Christian. What Dr. Kennedy said above may have applied to George Washington or maybe even to James Madison but it could not be truthfully applied to Thomas Jefferson. Jefferson was more than just a lost but church going nominal Christian. He was a theological heretic who rejected the Lord Jesus Christ and many of the historical works of God found in Scripture.
I think that is just one example of how Dr. Kennedy misunderstood American history.
So he left us with a mixed reputation. On the good was his exposition of the Word of God. On the bad was his appearing on TBN and some of his misunderstandings of history.
Sorry for the length of this post.
In Christ,
Martin
Great blog and really good comments made. I like Ray Comfort. Personally I do not like the majority of the British religious television networks, or the American ones that show over here such as TBN; but I think the likes of Ray Comfort only want to use the available mediums to share the truth of God’s word. I think if more Biblically sound preachers started airing more on those networks then maybe it would take the place of heretics such as TD Jakes. However I do get your points, if they are showing on the same network as a heretic like Jakes, it can appear that they are giving their stamp of approval to the unbiblical shows being aired on that network. Yet I doubt this is their intention. Blessings!
Nick,
I had no idea he said such a thing. In that case, BOTH ruined his rep…
TC,
THE Ray Comfort, who keeps hanging with heretics (TBN are WoF adherents, and the WoF is a heretical subsect of Pentecostalism – not to mention that he spoke at a conference with Robb Thompson, friend of Mike Murdoch, the pulpit pimp and liar, and John Avanzini, who is a false prosperity preacher). It is stuff like that which affirms my belief not to be a “fan” of any ministry.
Douglas K,
In response, not sure you have listened to the Way of the master radio station, of which Ray Comfort is a co- founder, but that station is consistantly rebuking and openly debating false doctrine and false movements that have entered Christianity such as the W of F etc. They even go as far as mentioning names. It was via this station that I learned that the likes of TD Jakes are actually heretical in doctrine. So to say Ray Comfort is the equivalent of those that you have mentioned, would be a tad far-fetched, as most of their (way of the master) ministry is spent debunking false doctrine. I agree that we should not simply respect a ministry for the sake of the individual; but I also believe that it is good that God has reserved for Himself sound teachers who can help edify His body and stand against error, to warn His sheep from the deception that “preachers” like Jakes would try to impute in the church .
Blessings.
Douglas, I really don’t know much about Ray Comfort except that I’ve seen his name on a few books.
Kerry, thanks for stopping by and liking my blog.
I have WOTM Radio in my iTunes. I am grateful for the ministry of Way of the Master, however I still believe that WOTM Radio should call Comfort to bear for hanging with heretics to the point where Robb Thompson calls him his “good friend”
Jesus was called “friend of tax collectors and sinners” (Matthew 11:19, Luke 7:34). Is it wrong for us to be called friends of heretics?
http://anyonecare.wordpress.com/2008/09/10/the-witchhunt-against-the-pentecostals-backfired/
John McArthur doesn’t go nearly far enough in his criticism.
ALL pentecostals are heretics, regardless of whether or not they subscribe to the ‘oneness’ heresy. They are the very definition of hyper-Arminian, works-based salvation and self glorification. The typical charismatic/pentecostal is notorious for having an ungodly, boastful and arrogant personality, a wholehearted contempt for pure, Biblical doctrine and a blind willingness to exalt every special ‘revelation’ they hear from some spirit (certainly not God’s Holy Spirit) over and against clear scriptural teaching.
To put it simply – you CANNOT be a pentecostal and a genuinely saved Christian at the same time.
Sorry, but the truth hurts.
James,
…you CANNOT be a pentecostal and a genuinely saved Christian at the same time.
I don’t know who you are, but you have lost your mind. You have exalted yourself to the position of God.
Have you read 1 Corinthians?
If so, read it again. Paul didn’t accuse the Corinthians (who were apparently having issues with spiritual gifts) of being lost. He showed them a more excellent way.
Stan, thanks for picking up on that one.
James, needs to clarify himself. Come on, James! You know better than that.
James,
Take 5 because that is not right. I am an ex-Pentecostal and very happily so, but it doesn’t mean they are unsaved.
1 Corinthians is an excellent place to look for evaluating James’ comments.
Note how Paul refers to the Corinthians in 1:2-9 . . . that is a far cry from telling the Corinthians they heretics.
I’ll admit he does have some harsh things to say to them, and in 2 Corinthians 13:5 he even encourages them to examine themselves to see whether they are in the faith . . . but he did not say they were heretics or that they were not “genuinely saved Christians” (however that may be defined).
sorry . . . 2 Corinthians not 12 (I’m not using the Lost Books Study Bible).
I had a video made by T.D. Jakes where he accidently started the congregation singing “Holy, Holy, Holy.” When he got to the stanza “God in three persons” he clammed up and wouldn’t say the words. He looked embarrassed and uptight. Personally, I enjoy his preaching and his style of delivery. But it bothers me that he can be so analytical on other Bible issues and yet not take the time of day to get this issue right. Oneness people argue that “Father” “Son” and “Holy Spirit” are just three different titles for Jesus. Yet when Jesus tells the people he did not send himself but was sent–what do they do with that? It’s a very slippery subject because we are talking about intangibles and also because of emotional biases people have about what they believe about reality. Because of this, on the surface Trinitarians and Oneness people seem to have only superficial differences between themselves. But once one looks deeper, then one realizes that we Trinitarians believe God is an intra-psychic unity of three eternal alter egos and the Oneness believe God is not a unity but actually an eternal singularity of an ego alone.
Mark, he’s a great speaker. There’s no doubt about that. But yes, some questionable theology.
I find it disturbing that we still fall into the trap of the enemy. Fighting, bickering and condemning one another over who God is. God is God. When Moses asked He said, “I AM THAT I AM”. That should settle it. But we still feel we have to subject the person/s of God to human scrutiny. As if that were possible.
If we survive these endless squabbles to arrive at Jesus’ judgment seat, the question will be to what extent we obeyed His commandment of love not whether we subscribe to the oneness or trinitarian doctrine.
For we know in part… we see through a glass darkly (1 Cor13:9,12), till we all come to the unity of faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God…that we henceforth be no more tossed about by every wind of doctrine (Eph 4:13,14)… The wind is not just the doctrines themselves but the arguments and contentions that follow in their wake. Take heed lest you fall!
There is such a sense of liberation in oneness pentecostal churches that I did not find in other. I am happy for my trinitarian friends but they are so confused about who they worship…….GOD IS GOD!! We can’t break him down, scrutizine the Almighty with our carnalities, instead of being full of accusations, LET US WALK IN LOVE, FOR GOD IS LOVE! We may all see GOD differently, get to Him differently, but He is still the SAME GOD! HE WILL THE THE JUDGE ON THE GREAT DAY OF JUDGEMENT…..ONE THING I KNOW THAT He is a JEALOUS GOD! HE IS THE ONE GOD! He Himself said in His Word that He knew not one (another God!). WHICHEVER WAY YOU GOT YOUR SALVATION, KEEP WORKING AT IT…..WALK IN LOVE!….WE JUST MIGHT GET TO HEAVEN!!
REMEMBER BELOVED, ONE DAY, YOUR KNEES, MY KNEES, YOUR TONGUE, MY TONGUE, WILL CONFESS THAT JESUS IS LORD!!
PRAISE HIS HOLY NAME!
HADASH
TD Jakes and many like him are heretics…not because I call them that but because he refuses to teach the true Gospel of Jesus Christ. Titus 3:10. What is going on with TD Jakes and many like him is what has already been discribed in 2Timothy 4:3. Our society has come to a place where church and the use of the Name of Jesus Christ are considered big businesses. People don’t want to hear the true Word of God so they gather false preachers like TD Jakes unto themselves…preachers who will not tell them that they need to turn from sin, but merely pacify their worldly desires and talk about how much favor and blessings God wants you to have. It is a heresy. And for those who are following Jakes and the like, I beseech or strongly urge you to go back to Bible basics. TD Jakes has been heard and seen on many television broadcasts denying the trinity in the false messages they preach.
Consider this, 2Timothy 3:5 states that these people have a “form of godliness” which means that many heretics like Jakes may have the signs and wonders but the Bible clearly tells us to depart from them.
2 Corinthians 11:14-And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
Now I know that my comments to this forum will not be popular and I’m okay with that. The Gospel of Jesus Christ is not popular in our society; for there are many who will defend false teachers but will not defend the Bible. I’m here to give those of you who follow TD Jakes and others like him, something to consider or to think about.
Could anyone tell me where in the bible does the word trinity appear? Can anyone tell me where the word even came from? Please don’t call someone a heritic if you don’t even know the history of what you believe.
The doctrine of the trinity is not found in scripture whatsoever. It was invented by 2 church counsels. The Counsel of Chalcedon and Nicea. The apostles believed that there was one God and Jesus was that God.
Let’s not talk about what men say, but what the word of God says. If someone can show me where the doctrine of the Trinity is biblical…now that would be a discussion.
Corey, the Church Councils you are refering to were exactly that, Church Councils led by the Spirit of God and are therefore authoritative. Furthermore, their setting forth of the doctrine of the Trinity was founded squarely upon the Scriptures.
The argument that the doctrine of the Trinity is unbiblical because the word ‘Trinity’ cannot be found in the Bible is juvenile. The Church believes in many biblical concepts which have had theological terms given to them.
The method you are using is an unhealthy form of biblicism.
I’m interested in the truth. John 17:17 says that the word of God is truth. We should be interested in what the scripture teaches before we look to church counsels.
The Old Testament describes God as One…Duet 6:4. Is. emphatically declares I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.
Isaiah 44:6
Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.
That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.
The Old Test. is clear…this is strong language. I Tim 3:16 says that God was manifested in flesh. I John 3:16 says that God laid down his life for us. Not a different person, but God.
I’m not wanting to have a “juvenile” argument. I’m interested in what scripture says.
Corey: Sure, the word “Trinity” was coined by Theophilus of Antioch and. And perhaps some of us call people heretics because we do know the history of what we believe. Historically such beliefs have been considered heretical (before even the councils you speak of).
Just to clear up some misinformation, the doctrine of the Trinity was not invented by two Church councils. The first council of Nicaea was convened to settle the dispute over the Son’s relationship to the Father. The Arian position was that the Son was not eternally the Son of the Father because he was a created being and therefore of a different substance than the Father. The pro-Nicene position was that the Son has always been the Son of the Father from all eternity and therefore was of the same substance as the Father. The doctrine of the Trinity was not the issue.
The issue at the council of Chalcedon was over the two natures of Christ. The heresies that took center stage were Nestorianism and Eutychianism. One saw the two natures as two persons and the other denied two natures after the incarnation. So the issue wasn’t over a Trinitarian controversy but rather over a Christological controversy.
Finally, you must really not understand the doctrine of the Trinity because you speak as if Trinitarians deny either (1) that there is one God, or (2) that Jesus is God. Trinitarians affirm both but they’re the only ones who can actually make sense of those two propositions.
I’m am very aware of what the councils were about. Saint Athanasius, who was a participant in the Council, stated that the bishops were forced to use this terminology, which is not found in Scripture, because the Biblical phrases that they would have preferred to use were claimed by the Arians to be capable of being interpreted in what the bishops considered to be a heretical sense.[31] They therefore “commandeered the non-scriptural[32] term homoousios (’of one substance’) in order to safeguard the essential relation of the Son to the Father that had been denied by Arius.”[33]
But again, no biblical argument…someone out there please show me in scripture where the doctrine of the trinity came from. I want to know truth and John 17:17 says that the word of God is truth. That alone is what I want to base my believes on.
Furthermore…I do understand what is the trinity doctrine states…God is one but he exist in three co-equal, co-eternal, co-existant persons.
Can somebody please explain how 1=3? that doesn’t make sense. Terms such as God the son, God the Holy Ghost, eternal begotten are not used in scripture. What col 2:9 states that ALL the fulness of the Godhead bodily is in Jesus. please post my comments this time… thank you
Corey: If you are aware of the issues discussed at the councils you named why did you say that the doctrine of the Trinity was “invented by 2 church counsels. The Counsel of Chalcedon and Nicea.”? This simply wasn’t the case. And while I’m glad that you’ve come across the Wikipedia article on the Trinity, that doesn’t exactly inspire confidence that you know what you’re talking about. Out of curiosity, did you bother to check the footnotes? Footnotes #32 which was part of what you cut and pasted above says:
The problem was that both groups were using the same language (i.e. the language found in Scripture) to say different things. The solution was to go beyond the language that was found in Scripture to clarify what Scripture actually said, hence Richard’s objection of your argument as “juvenile” is fitting. You are insisting on the use of language that is being used by two different groups to say two different things as if an agreement could be reached that way.
And to answer your question, no, I can’t explain how God is one and three any more than you can explain how God is one. I don’t know how God is what he is. I can explain that there is no contradiction in the oneness and threeness of God because the ‘one’ has reference to the being/nature/substance of God and the ‘three’ has reference to the persons. Some people like to explain it as one “what” and three “whos.” So it makes sense regardless of whether or not you want it to.
Also, concerning your use of Scripture, I’d point out that (1) all of the passages you cite are compatible with Trinitarianism, and (2) they might not say what you think they say, e.g., 1Tim. 3:16 probably didn’t originally say “God was manifest in the flesh” but rather “He was manifest in the flesh.” There’s a significant textual variant there. Likewise, “alone” is the preferable translation to “one” in Deut. 6:4. The context suggests that Yahweh is Israel’s God “alone.” And I’m sorry, but 1John 3:16 doesn’t say that “God” laid down his life for us. This isn’t to say that Jesus isn’t God, but you can’t make the verse say what you want it to say.
Corey,
I find it somewhat ironic that you repudiate the ancient creeds and yet you base your own argument upon two of the most ancient creeds there are; both Deut. 6:4 and 1 Tim. 3:16 are historic Creeds, the first of Israel and the second of the Church.
As Nick is far more up on the issue of the trinity I will let him deal with your questions.
Oh, and check out Nick chapters here.
Glad I happened upon your website (probably with God’s help I’m sure). How might I go about adding my name for a newsletter subscription? Thanks.
P.S. We need to pray earnestly for Jakes (I’ve yet to hear him say publicly, or even on video, what his perspective is on the Trinity.), Joel Osteen, and other pastor, doctors, and others of the faith who’ve lost their way that hopefully and prayerfully, they’ll be restored to the faith before the Lord returns for the church. I’ve begun to wonder just have grieved God/Jesus are with what’s going on not only in the world, but in Christiandom as a whole. God have mercy on and help us all.
For anyone who struggles to understand how to discern between what is heresy and what is truth I would recommend Albert Mohlers assesment on this issue. You can find the full article on http://www.albertmohler.com but for now let me summarise it here.
He explains that there is a need for Christians of today to adopt a thelogical triage system in relation to discerning what is true and what is false with regards to teaching and doctrine. A triage system is basically something of an heirarchial prioritisation of beliefs or situations. It is used in Hospital Emergency rooms to help deal with the great numbers of patients who come through the swinging doors each day. Essentially, the triage system is used to save lives. There are 1st order, 2nd order and 3rd order issues.
In the medical profession, 1st order issues are patients who are critical and need attention immediately or there lives are at risk. 2nd orders are fairl bad injuries but can wait as they are not life-threatening and finally 3rd order issues are patients, like me, who have sprained their ankle playing football (or soccer as the Yanks call it).
In Christianity this triage system can explained as the following;
1st order issues- the trinity, the fully deity and full humanity of Jesus Christ (hypostatic union), penal substitution, the resurrection, literal heaven and hell and final judgement, authority, suffiency and infallibility of the Scripture etc (cant think if ive missed something out here)
If anyone/any church denies these beliefs they are heretical and are not to be deemed Christian or be invited into fellowship for they go against the clear teaching of the Bible and they refute 2,00 years of historical Christiantiy. A denial of such beliefs leaves ones salvation questionable and a denial of the scriptures means we have no foundation of original truth to stand upon.
2nd order issues- Baptism (childhood and believers baptism), prophecy, tongues, gifts (cessationism and contuationism) , church services, worship etc
These issues are secondary and whilst still important do not affect salvation. However, the likelihood is that the disagreements will mean it is better for us to not do church together every week, but we can still have fellowship together in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and we are brothers and sisters in Christ. (eg Baptists and Presbyterians, Pentecostals and Anglicans)
3rd Order- Eschatolgical differences (amillenianism/premillenianism), 2nd coming etc.
We may disagree on these but really they are not to cause divisions as none of us can claim to know this. Thus it is foolish to fall out over such issues. We should continue on in fellowship with one another
Hopefully this will prove helpful, but as always get to the Bible and examine the Scriptures for yourself. The main problem today is that Christians are Christians but dont’read the Bible. We think it’s more important to throw our hands up in the air once a week and sing songs than it is to examine the Scriptures to grow in the grace and knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ. Be like the Bereans in Acts 7:11, be noble and examine the Scriptures and through increased knowledge of the Bible false teaching and heresies will become clear.
All the best
R.P
2,000 years of Christianity not 200!!!!
reformed pilgrim: So basically Southern Baptist beliefs are orthodox and anything else is heresy, right?
Whooo Hoooo,
Its nice to c some theological debating going on round here.
Blake, yes!!! I am praying for u brother, u and yor family. Boys of the trinitarian faith, i commend u for your hard work and effort in helping this guy see the truth.
Damian, we do have to be very careful on what we call heretical.
BUT COREY!!! NOT GOOD MAN. Wheres the word eschatology in the bible? wheres the word Soteriology in the bible? Those words arn’t there either. but i assure you they are very biblical
Let me shine some light for U, JESUS WAS WITH GOD< AND JESUS WAS GOD…Read John chapter 1 its there.
God says He’s the ONE and ONLY TRUE God, there were none before Him, and there will be none after Him Isaiah 43:10…then how can Jesus be God? Hmmmm
2)Lets bring the Holy Spirit into this. In, again, John, Jesus says He’s leaving, He’s going to the cross, this is what He tells his disciples before He goes, “And I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, to be with you forever, even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him” JOHN 14:16
There are two words for another in the Greek, 1 ‘heteros’ which means another that is different. 2 ‘allos’ is the one thats being used here. It means the exact same. If i gave you my bible, and i asked you for ‘allos’ biblia, you would have to give me another bible that is the exact same as mine, same version, same name on the lower right hand corner, same notes i have written, and the same little tares in it that my Pastor’s cat coalys made about a year ago. Does it make sense,
Jesus promised to send One who was the same as Him, hence the Holy Spirit dwells in us, yet “it is not i who live but Christ who lives in me” GAL 2:20
I hope that helps you “find” where the trinity is in the Bible.
Grace and Peace,
in HIS grip- tommy
Right, Jesus was with God, Jesus was God.
God is Triune.
Nick,
“So basically Southern Baptist beliefs are orthodox and anything else is heresy, right?”
Absolutely. As soon as we SBCers can figure out exactly what our beliefs are and agree upon them.
In the various discussions, it is surprising that no one bothered to mention that Jesus defined God for us, when he agreed with a professional theologian, a scribe, that the really important command is “listen Israel, the Lord our God is one Lord” (Mark 12:29). One Lord does not mean two or three Lords! Jesus as the founder of our Christian faith was a Jew, and as we ought to know, Jews had no Trinity in their system. Ps. 110:1 was the text Jesus used to stump all opposition (Matt. 22, Mark 12, Luke 20). That text defines the lord Messiah as David’s lord. The Hebrew word ADONI, my lord, is never a reference to Deity but always to a non-Deity superior. That is who Jesus is according to Jesus own proof text. Peter knew this well and makes the same point in Acts 2:34-36. Jesus was clearly a unitarian believer in the One God. Jesus quoted that unitarian creed (Deut. 6:4; Mark 12:29). That is really quite easily grasped. We should all be following Jesus and that means returning to his doctrine of God.
Troll.
Stan, Why did you say that?
troll – code word for spam.
No, Anthony is no spammer. He’s an actual Unitarian of the Socinian variety. Of course he’s wrong that Jesus was a Unitarian or that Deuteronomy 6:4 constitutes any kind of unitarian creed (it’s not an ontological statement about Yahweh but rather a statement that Yahweh ALONE [= echad] is Israel’s God), but his comment isn’t spam. It’s amazing that he can refer to Acts 2:34-36 as teaching his brand of Unitarianism when it comes in the midst of a Trinitarian proclamation of the Gospel!
Who is John MacArthur and why should I give him any more credence than any other speck of dust on earth? I am always troubled when I see the back and forth dialogues such as the ones on this page. Most people that posted have a strong opinion and most are adament that they are right. Now tell me, how can everyone here that disagrees all be right? I believe the problem with much of this is that there countless persons seeking to learn and know more about Christ. Many use the internet to begin their search. If I was not a Christian and ran across this page, I would be very discouraged and maybe believe all the stereotypes I hear about Christians. It doesn’t matter whether I agree with you or not. The point is to share Christ and be a fisher of men. Please be mindful that if this page is the first Jesus someone sees, it may be their last.
I believe the bible says there is only one God
Duet. 6:4 “hear O Isreal the Lord our God is one Lord”.
The word Trinity is not found in the Bible.
The bible does not say any where that Jesus is “God the Son” but it does say “Jesus is the Son of God.”
If the virgin Mary was pregnant by The Holy Spirit, does that mean that Jesus had 2 Fathers?
Isaiah 45:18 says “For thus saith the Lord that created the heavens: God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the Lord; and there is none else.
There is one God and none else. Not 3
When Jesus was dead on the cross does that mean God died? God Bless You
Daniel, that is the oldest pagan trick in the world. you say the Holy Spirit hovered over Mary, so how many Fathers does Jesus have.
the answer. One. you believe the Jesus the Son only existed when he was born of Mary, and Jesus never co-existed with the Father at anytime.
but Jesus Christ calls you a Liar in John 17.5.
Jesus was Eternally begotten of His Father, the Holy Spirit brought Jesus into the world, not existence.
I like john Macarthur’s books, but what is amazing to me is his dogmatic critical verbage to condemn someone a heretic because they believe God is One? Amazing. TD Jakes, Oneness Pentecostals? It is a matter of symantics, just because we don’t use the same terminology all of a sudden we label people heretics. that is the problem with evangelical christianity today, ripe and ready to condemn. Jesus said, by this shall all men know that you are my disciples because you have love one for another. anyway, don’t be so quick call someone a heretic without first finding out the facts. TD Jakes, nor oneness pentecostals deny the father, son or the Holy spirit. Do we label john macarthur a heretic because he denies the gifts of the spirit, or speaking in tongues, or doesn’t view eschatology like i do? so let’s not be too quick to label.
You are a heretic, you reject Gods Son, you say the Father is the Son. you reject Gods anointed one.
Psalm 2:1-7 (King James Version)1 Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing? 2The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying, 3Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us. 4He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the LORD shall have them in derision. 5Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure. 6Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion. 7I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.
God said here against, MY SON. it says against the Lord AND against His Anointed.
God said He set His King.
your lost man, face it. oneness is of satan. you reject the Son of God.
Daniel: Trinitarians believe there is only one God, not three! Deuteronomy 6:4 is not about God being one (i.e., it’s not a declaration of God’s ontological makeup); it’s a declaration that YHWH is ALONE Israel’s God amidst the myriads of pagan deities that the non-Israelites worshipped. The rest of your (I’m sorry to say stupid) questions are addressed by any and every internet apologist I’ve ever come across. Google the questions for answers.
Rob: The question is “one what?” Oneness Pentecostals believe God to be “one person” who has manifested himself in three roles or offices. Their belief is a form of modalism which was condemned as heresy in the third century, long before Evangelicalism came along. So when you say that Jakes and Oneness Pentecostals don’t deny the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit you’re not giving the full picture. Sure, they use the terms, but they have significantly different meanings behind those terms. For orthodox Christianity the Father, Son, and Spirit are distinct persons. For Oneness Pentecostals they are just different ways of talking about Jesus, i.e., Father = divine nature; Son = human nature; Spirit = a synonym for God’s presence in the world. These are the facts of the matter and it is because of these facts that certain individuals (Jakes being one of them) are rightly labeled heretics.
All the trinitarians will pray in the name, cast out devils in the name and do everything in the name of Jesus, but when it comes to the water they no longer use that name. And there is not a single person in the entirety of the gospel that was baptized in titles Father son Holy Ghost. Now I know what Matthew 28:19 says. But someone tell me who was baptized here! My answer is no one. But the focal point here is N-A-M-E. Not names. Then Peter in acts ch.2 fulfilled what was said in matthew 28:19 by baptizing in jesus name. also in acts 8 acts 9 and 19. I was once a trinity believer but converted 10 years ago. and have a page totally dedicated to my oneness faith at myspace.com/phillipraper
Rob,
I have to second what my bro Nick said. Oneness Pentecostals are heretics, since they deny the distinct personality of the members of the Godhead, while the NT clearly teaches that. While I admit (and Nick can bear witness) that some (myself included) are a little quick to throw around the word heretic, at times it is perfectly justified.
The word Trinity is not found in the Bible.
Nor is the word “Bible” so you had best stop using that too!
The bible does not say any where that Jesus is “God the Son”
That is as may be, but we are told explicitly that Jesus is God, so (a) “Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.” (Matthew 1:23); (b) “But about the Son he says, “Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever; a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom.” (Hebrews 1:8)
My suggestion would be to study this issue historically rather than simply parroting some rather poor arguments. Try The Holy Trinity: In Scripture, History, Theology And Worship by Robert Letham.
Also study the Athanasian Creed:
And study the Definition of Chalcedon:
You guys are silly,
Was Moses a trinitarian? NOPE- One GOD always was and always will be. The silliness of a 3 god triune 1 plus 1 plus 1 equals 1 is philisophical foolishness. A lie the devil uses to get people to believe 3 gods is 1 god. Look, if everyone made it simple and listened to what their common sense told them and not all this nonsense they wouldn’t be so confused. Those of you who will listen. There is one GOD – THE FATHER- who is invisible! But when you get to heaven, you will not see 3 thrones. (C’mon now people!), You will not see 3 “persons” chatting with each other all trying to sqeeze on ONE throne. NOPE. You don’t even have to worry about praying to The Father, and gettin “GOD THE SON” jealous! Or maybe you need to spend 10 minutes with each person… or you exalt one above the other. hehe. NOPE, WHEN YOU SEE THE ONE SITTING ON THE ONE THRONE OF HEAVEN AND THE ONE COMING IN THE CLOUDS OF GLORY, IT WILL BE JESUS CHRIST. JESUS CHRIST IS THE ONLY GOD YOU WILL EVER SEE. Now,…….if I be a heretic for worshipping JESUS CHRIST, and magnifying HIM, not as the SECOND, but as the FIRS AND THE LAST, I’m not even sorry. THE FATHER IS IN CHRIST , NOT GOD THE SON IN THE SON OF GOD.
Moes was a trinatarian Jay, through the Holy Spirit he is the one who wrote Gen 1.26.
Daniel 7:13 (King James Version)13I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
Here Jesus comes with the clouds of heaven to His Father.
Yes Jesus said I and my Father are one. but why is it you always seem to forget to teach people that Jesus said a little later when He asked His Father, Father I pray that they may be one, as WE are one. so if your interpretation is correct, than the church will also be one person. so only one person shall enter the kingdom of God right?
you know, it’s funny to me how oneness believers can sleep at night. God said Jehovah would be His name forever, but you say he decided to change it to Jesus.
you know these are questions I asked oneness believers, but they never want to answer them, they just call me scum and block me from writing them again.
so I will take the chance with you. if you call me scum, so be it.
you say Jesus is the Father.
At the baptism all three were present at the same time.
Mark 1:9-12 (King James Version)9And it came to pass in those days, that Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee, and was baptized of John in Jordan. 10And straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens opened, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon him: 1And there came a voice from heaven, saying, Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased
now I believe Jesus Christ is 100% God, but Jesus spoke of His Father, and in Hebrews His Father spoke of His Son.
Hebrews 1:5 (King James Version)5For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
Hebrews 1:13 (King James Version)13But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?
Jesus said the wittness of two is true, He said if He beareth wittness of Himself it meant nothing, He said there is Another who beareth wittness of Him speaking of His Father. He also called the Holy Spirit Another, one like Him, who proceeds from the Father.
Genesis 1:26 (King James Version)26And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
Gen 3.22, Gen 11.6-7, Also. many oneness believers say God was talking to angels when He said we there, but that would mean angels held a part in the creation, but Isaiah 44.24 exposes that as a lie.
Isaiah 44:24 (King James Version)24Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens ALONE; that spreadeth abroad the earth by MYSELF;
Jesus said no man has ever seen the Father at anytime, but Abraham stood face to face with God. you always scream Acts 2.38, but I have never heard a oneness believer at anytime ever mention Acts 2.33.
Acts 2:33 (King James Version) 33Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
Many times in the bible it declares Jesus Christ will sit on the right hand of God the Father, and it clearly says here Jesus received of His Father the Promise of the Holy Spirit.
you say Jesus said if you seen me, you have seen the Father, but the bible says that Jesus is the express image of His Father.
you say only one was on the throne in revelation, I disagree with your interpretation of that verse, but I never heard a oneness believer mention revelation 21.22, you see after revelation is over and all was revealed, John still sees Jesus with His Father, for they are the temple of it.
Revelation 21:22 (King James Version)22And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty AND the Lamb are the temple of it.
Just a couple more more points I would like to make, I feel if you get baptised in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, or in the name of Jesus, you are doing Gods will . Gods not the goverment. Jesus was talking to the nations who knew not Jesus yet, The saints were talking to the people who knew Jesus, both can be used.
but we are not saved by baptism. It’s though the precious Blood of Gods only Begotten Son we are saved.
It is through the Stripes and Blood of Jesus Christ we are saved. if a man says Jesus I love you, I accept you, then walks across the street to be baptised and gets hit by a bus. you might say he is going to hell, I say Jesus Christ has His back.
the theif on the cross was not baptised. but Jesus gave him great news. you would have told him he was going to hell.
but back to the point, a oneness believer told me who is the Father of Jesus? being the Holy Spirit hovered over Mary? you see, you believe that Jesus only existed when He was born of the virgin Mary. but we who believe in Gods Triunity know that Jesus Christ was eternally begotten of His Father, the Holy Spirit brought Jesus into the world, not existance, so the Father is the Father of Jesus.
but check this out, I don’t know how oneness believers can get around John 17.5. look when I say you, don’t take it personly, I mean the mainstream oneness denomination. but oneness believers i debated with says Jesus never coexisted with His Father at any time, nor did he exist before he was born into this world.
read John 17.5, Jesus exposed both of them teachings to be lies, theres no getting around that.
John 17:5 (King James Version)5And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
Here Jesus Himself exposes the satanic lie that He did not coexist with His Father, and He also exposes the satanic lie that Jesus the Son only existed when he was born of Mary.
If Jesus is the Father, why did he say if a man loves me, my Father will love Him, and WE shall make OUR abode with him?
1 John 1.3 it is said that our fellowship is with the Father, and WITH His Son Jesus. it says the Father and WITH His Son Jesus. If the Father is Jesus, why say (with) there?
Jesus took the book out of His Fathers hand.
to close I will just say that I do not get it. I was in a oneness church, but I had no idea they rejected Gods Triunity. when I found out I confronted the pastor, he had no response, it looked like I shook him. all he said was I will get back with you. I knew more about the bible than he did.
you can fight and fight, but the bible calls you heretics.
one day a oneness believer asks me if I ever had sex before marriage, I said yes. he screamed at me your going to hell. what I find interesting is the woman by the well, she was married five times, and the man she was living with at the time she was not even married to ( living in sin) but Jesus told her to go get her family and preached the kingdom of God to them, He had love for her. you know as well as I know if that was a oneness believer, at that same well, and knew what that same woman was doing in her lifestyle, they would have stoned her to death. and put there hands up screaming in the name of Jesus.
If you think Jesus Christ is the Father, you deny the biblical Jesus Christ, you reject the Son of God. Jesus said no man goes to the Father but through Him, but you say by putting the name of Jesus on His Father, you can legelly reject the Son of God.
God told Abraham to sacrifice his son, that was symbolic of what God would do for His people.
you will ask one more question, what will we see when we go to heaven, first I believe if you reject Gods Triunity, you will not see heaven. but for the ones that do. will the Saints see Three thrones?
No, we will see one throne. the Father will be on His throne, Jesus Christ His only begotten Son, will be on His right hand side, just as the bible says, and the Almighty Holy Spirit will be in the Saints.
Revelation 3:21-22 (King James Version)21To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. 22He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
I also find interesting Zechariah 2.10. Jehovah says thus said Jehovah, I shall dwell in the midst of thee, and in that day you shall know that Jehovah has sent me unto you.
the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is Jehovah, but Jesus is the Son. Jesus is our redeemer, its through His precious Blood we are saved.
I will leave you what God says about those who reject His son, like uouu and many more of the pagan world.
If you believe in oneness, you reject Jesus Christ. you can scream Jesus from the rooftops, but unless you believe in who He said He was, you will die in your sins.
iF YOU BELIEVE IN ONENESS, YOU WILL NOT ENTER INTO THE KINGDOM OF GOD.
If you have time check out this song, I love it. It exposes the satanic oneness doctrine. and gives Glory to the God of the Bible.
the Father, The Son, and the Holy Spirit, Three Distinct Persons, of the One and Only Lord God of Isreal.
God is Triune.
THE FAR MORE ANCIENT BELIEF, THAT HELD BY ABRAHAM, THAT HELD BY ADAM, THAT HELD BY MOSES, IS ONE GOD. SIMPLY ONE GOD, not 3 in one. Antiquity affirms it. Even the catholics admit that if any of the apostles took even a basic test on the knowledge of the trinity they would flunk. hehe WHY? Cuz they don’t believe it.
Math experts here you go,
(ONENESS)
John 1:1 IN the beginning was the Word, the Word was with GOD and the Word was GOD
GOD=THE FATHER
In the beginning was the Word, the Word was with THE FATHER, and the Word was The FATHER
TRINITY
GOD= FATHER, SON, HOLY GHOST
In the beginning was the word, the word was with The Father Son and HOly Ghost, and the word was the Father Son and Holy Ghost…
Uh,……I mean,…the word was GOD THE SON,..uh er WITH GOD THE SON,…umm….no with the father, but lemme change that last GOD to be GOD the son…..I mean…uh
Jay,
Now the whole world can know of your ignorance regarding the Trinity. At least learn what others believe about it before you begin your assault.
trinity= confusion
ONE GOD= THE FATHER manifested IN the SON JESUS
Who was in Christ?
GOD THE SON the second person in the SON OF GOD that holy child born of Mary?
OR the FATHER, Jehovah of Israel, the One true GOD, in the Son of God that holy child born of Mary?
Make it easy on yourselves, JESUS IS GOD, worship Him
Jay give it up, God is Triune, deal with it.
I was being silly about your trinity, OF COURSE you don’t believe that the word is the father son and holy ghost, you believe he is GOD the son,…….I was showing the silliness of what you have to do to interpret john 1:1…….interchanging the word GOD to mean what you want it to mean,…….example
In the beginning was the word, the word was with GOD (THE FATHER), and the word was GOD ( GOD THE SON) whoops…….had to flip that definition of GOD
didn’t you? …you see, I understand your trinity just think y ou have to do some pretty silly things to protect it
Jay, you believe the Father instead of sending His only begotten Son, became His own Son and walked around like a iddiot talking to himself, thats something you would do, not God.
and no we will not see three thrones, we will see the Father on His throne, Jesus Christ on His right hand side, and the Holy Spirit will be in the Saints.
read revelation 21.22. why does John still see Jesus and His Father? remember this part of revelation all is revealed, why does the bible say, for there will be no temple there, for God AND the Lamb shall be the throne of it.
you are a liar Jay. you reject Jesus Christ, you are a pagan.
Jesus said if a man love me, my Father will love you, and WE will make OUR abode with you.
laugh at that one. get your apples out.
God is Triune. praise the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
STAN WROTE:
Jay,
Now the whole world can know of your ignorance regarding the Trinity. At least learn what others believe about it before you begin your assault
I was being silly about your trinity, OF COURSE you don’t believe that the word is the father son and holy ghost, you believe he is GOD the son,…….I was showing the silliness of what you have to do to interpret john 1:1…….interchanging the word GOD to mean what you want it to mean,…….example
In the beginning was the word, the word was with GOD (THE FATHER), and the word was GOD ( GOD THE SON) whoops…….had to flip that definition of GOD
didn’t you? …you see, I understand your trinity just think y ou have to do some pretty silly things to protect it
What I also find interesting is what TOmmy had posted about the HOLY SPIRIT being of the same kind, and not of another kind and that CHRIST WOULD BE IN US…. That is what Oneness believers believe. That Christ was not referring to ANOTHER PERSON ( A DIFFERENT KIND) , but of Himself (THE SAME KIND) in another FORM (spirit). And then the scripture tops it off by saying that CHRIST is in us…. not some 3rd person, but the Spirit of JESUS… did I miss something or is TOmmy Oneness? hehe =)
last one,
If anyone is kind of interested in a different angle this is a good site, has all kinds of neat topics,( yes Oneness beliefs explained, or at least one angle)
http://www.apostolic.net/biblicalstudies/
LOVE,
The heretic who Worships Jesus as GOD high and lifted up on the throne ;o)
Ignorant AND an ass.
God will not be mocked you son of the devil.
Right on, tell that pagan where to Go, God is Triune.
Stan McCullars
“Ignorant AND an ass.
God will not be mocked you son of the devil”
THAT is your response Stan??? LOL. You just don’t agree with me is all, but I would not call what is not demonic, of the devil. Calling what is of GOD of Satan is not good for your soul.
Take a look at JOhn 1:1 with the lights on.
JESUS IS THE THEOS!!! THE WORD IS THE FATHER!!
Hey guys, play it clean, please. Thank you.
Just because you have trouble with certain passages of the BIBLE doesn’t mean you ought not to believe what it says in other parts.
I know it is hard to understand the nature of CHRIST’S diety (which is GOD THE FATHER, NOT god the son) and His humanity (which was the son of God born of mary) joined together in CHRIST JESUS. JESUS is the visible manifestation of GOD THE FATHER. THE ONLY GOD YOU will ever see. And we shall bow our knees unto this ONE same GOD, JESUS CHRIST. Who sits on ONE throne.
Just because GOD THE FATHER became flesh (HUMAN AND DIETY UNITED) does not mean that He left heaven. GOD continues to be GOD even outside His existence as the GOD-MAN Jesus Christ. That is why we don’t have to believe that ONE member of the Trinity needs help to pray to another member of the Trinity and then try to trick ourselves into believing that there are not two gods but one. Believe that the Father is in Jesus. Ask Him to show you the Father,and He will say to you , ” have I been so long time with you and you have not known Me?”….” he who has seen me HAS SEEN THE FATHER, so how can you say to me, show me The Father?” JESUS IS THE VISIBLE MANIFESTION OF THE INVISIBLE GOD WHO IS ONE!
Or do you think that the incense offered up to HIM was not acceptable because the priests did not believe He was triune?
Jay, no man goes to the Father, but through the Son.
1 John 1:3 (King James Version) 3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.
The bible says here our fellowship is with the Father AND his Son Jesus.
1 John 5:5 (King James Version) 5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?
now here Jay, the bible says those that believe on the Son of God overcomes the world. did you not just say those who believe on Gods Son is silly?
1 John 2:22-23 (King James Version) 22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
23Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.
Jay, the bible say who is a antichrist? those who reject the Father AND the Son. like you, you say the Father is the Son.
1 John 4:14 (King James Version) 14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.
Wow, John says they SEEN and do testify that the Father SENT his Son.
don’t you preach people who believe that are silly?
1 John 5:10 (King James Version) 10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.
Now here Jay, you better gets your apples out, because God calls you a Liar. you do not believe the record God gave His Son, you just said we are silly for believing that.
then I am silly Jay, because I do believe the record God gave His Son.
1 John 5:11-13 (King James Version)
11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
Now Jay, it says for those who believes on the NAME of the Son of God.
you say there is no Son, the name Jesus belongs to the Father right? Wow the bible does not teach that.
Jay, go play with your apples, God is Triune.
and you serve a differant god, a differant jesus, a differant gospil.
Glory to the Triune God, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit for exposing jay as aliar.
amen.
Thanks TC,
I’m hoping to =)
IT’s much the same way that the Holy Spirit can be in more than one believer at the same time… OR…are there MULTIPLE spirits…maybe not a triune god…but a quadmillion god???
NO! Foolishness. It is the SAME Spirit. Anyone who is filled with the Holy GHOST, ask Him…who are you LORD??? And He will say, ” I am Jesus!”
Jesus said HE will not leave us comfortless! BUT THAT HE WILL COME TO US! HE will not leave us orphans! But He is our Father and said He would be with us till the end. HOW??? Because He is in you! How??? By body?? By 2cnd person?? 3rd person??? No, THE LORD IS THE SPIRIT! (2 Cor 3:17) Take comfort in that saints! =) Jesus is LORD!
Jay is a pagan
Richard wrote: (quoting from A creed)
“…..So likewise the Father is Almighty, the Son Almighty : and the Holy Ghost Almighty.
And yet they are not three Almighties : but one Almighty.
So the Father is God, the Son is God : and the Holy Ghost is God.
And yet they are not three Gods : but one God.
So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord : and the Holy Ghost Lord.
And yet not three Lords : but one Lord…….”
wow, is this REALLY what you want to believe?
I will set out 3 apples and tell you there is only one apple….
it reminds me of the emperors new clothes or something LOL
This is the Catholick Faith : which except a man believe faithfully, he cannot be saved
Hey Jay, this is what I really believe. the apple thing was so funny.
last night I had a dream about your oneness theory.
the Father says he sent His Son, but you say the Father is the Son.
my dream was this, when I was born as a little baby I looked up and seen my dad, who, with the help of my Mother brought me into the world, but as I looked up, I knew I was my dad, my dad looked down and he knew he was me. we was not distinct, we were one.
when I was 12, me and my dad was riding down the street, I was on the left hand side of my dad. but I knew that was me I was on the left hand side of, and my dad knew, that on the right hand side of him, was really me.
One day my mom told me to grab a book out of my Dads hand, and I did, but like you say, that was me taking that book out of my own hand.
we talked to each other, but we knew we were each other. we were not two distinct, but one.
I am my Father, my Father is me.
Jay? Am I my Mother also, is my Mother me? what about my cousin Ernie, Am I him? Is my sister me too, if so I better get my hair done.
man Jay, The Father pretending to be Jesus, and Jesus pretending to be His Father is cool man, so when they spoke of one another, they were giving themselves glory.
your oneness theory is so cool, just like the Nutty Professor, so your god is the nutty professor.
man, it’s a tough one, but I will stick with the Lord God of Isreal, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
three distinct, but the one and only Lord God of Isreal.
but your apple thing was cute. maybe Lee Stoneking will add that to his pamplet.
Godistriune.
There is no question that Scripture states that God exists in the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, as One God. Some pastors object to the word “Trinity” because that specific word doesn’t appear in the Bible. The word “Trinity” was coined by Tertullian (250 AD), who later apostatized to Monatism. Some believers prefer to use the word “Triune” or “Three-in-One”. As long as a believer recognizes that God clearly describes Himself as existing in Three Separate Persons (the Father, the Son (or Word), and the Holy Spirit) united in One Essence as God, it’s not necessary for a believer to use the specific word “Trinity” in order to be orthodox. I use the word “Trinity”; but I don’t condemn those people who don’t, as long as they recognize the Triune Nature of God.
TD Jakes does not recognize the co-equal, co-eternal Persons of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit in One God. Jakes is not orthodox. Jakes seems to reject how God has described Himself in the Bible. That is the issue, not the specific use of the word “Trinity”.
Golleee neighbors! You got a tiger by the tail on this one. I had NO IDEA T. D. Jakes was that messed up (and NO IDEA that the rest of us were asleep at the wheel on this one.)
YES, he is a heretic. There is no compromise on that one. It is classically called modalism and bears some similarity to Gnosticism.
The big question is WHO WAS JESUS PRAYING TO IN THE GARDEN? Then we have to look at all the Old Testament manifestations of the pre-incarnate Christ (think of the Angel of the Lord here…)
Then there is Daniel’s magnificent vision in Daniel 7:
13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.
Here we have TWO people, the Son of Man and the Ancient of Days. God appears as two distinct persons at the SAME TIME, whoopsie!
(well if it was good enough for Daniel, its good enough for me…)
Hear O’ Isreail thy God is one.
Right, Hes one, in Three, distinct Persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
Well that adds nothing to the conversation.
The fact that Sabelliamism has been already condemn in the history of the church, it is not surprising why until now such heretical view is still existing. The main reason is that satan is still at work to decieve those whom God predestined to go to hell. Polemically,Sabellianist are those whom God has predestined to condemnation.
Oneness is a pagan satanic lie, READ THE BIBLE.
God is Triune. the Father pretending to be his only begotten son lie only a pagan can believe such a thing. at the baptism all three were there, Jesus took the book out of His Fathers hand. read John 17.5.
to arm 5, stop listening to pagans, and read the bible. the father sent His son, he did not become his own son… come on dude.
Well said Fred, I use God is Triune, because he is. the Father spoke of His Son, the Son spoke of His Father, the Father spoke of His Spirit, the Spirit spoke of Jesus and the Father.
three distinct, but yet we only have one God.
oneness pagans can’t understand God, so they created there own, one like them.
they made a neon god, who can not see, nor hear, nor talk.
The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit is God, the one God.
but they are distinct, but yet one in essense. fact, read the bible.
why is it after revelation is over and all is revealed, in revelation 21.22 John still sees Jesus and His Father togerther, for they are the throne of it.
Marty, you are the man. well said.
oneness is a very pagan religion.
you mention Danial, good one. we also see Jesus said if I beareth wittness of myself, it would mean nothing, but there is ANOTHER who bears wittness of me, His Father.
John 17.5 Glorify O Father, with the Glory which I had with you before the world was.
this is the oneness version. Jesus says Glorify O me, with the Glory which I had with myself, before the world was.
for God so loved the world He sent His only begotten Son, that whosoever believes on Him, shall not perish, but have everlasting life.
oneness version. God so loved the world, he became his only begotten son, that whosoever believes on the Father lying and saying he is his own son, shall not… you get the drift.
while Jesus was in the water, the Father said from heaven, this is my beloved Son in whom I am well pleased, at that moment the Holy Spirit descended upon him.
oneness version. while Jesus was in the water, Jesus spoke from heaven and said this is me, in whom I am well pleased, at that moment Jesus descended upon him… Huh?
being filled with the Holy Spirit, Stephen looked up and seen Jesus on the right hand of God.
oneness version. being filled with Jesus, Jesus looked up and seen Jesus on the right hand of Jesus.
to oneness believers. what are you people on? contact me anytime at brandy.scott2008@att.net for help. one oneness believer told me that it is like what Eddie Murphy did in the nutty professor.
you are comparing the Lord God of Isreal to the nutty professor. anyway, God is Triune.
I reject the god of oneness. you can have him. you choose to believe whatever you choose to believe, but as for as me and my house, we shall serve the Lord.
Jesus is 100% God Almighty, but he has a Father, He spoke it. and I believe Him over you… sorry.
Guys, we’re just using the wrong equation!
1+1+1=3
but!
1*1*1=1
Thus the Trinity.
Sorry, I couldn’t help it.
Prays the Lord,
Juses says “When you see me you see the Father John 14:8,9,10. here Jesus is leting Thomas
know that he was God.He did not say that he was seperit from God but that he came out from God.
Juses was speaking plain to Thomas not in proverb.He wanted Thomas to know who he was.If their was three seperit person he would have explained it to Thomas.
Mary, you do not even believe in the Lord, so how can you praise him.
God said He sent His only begotten Son into the world, that whosoever believes on the Son of God will live forever.
but you have chosen another doctrine.
You say Jesus and the Father are not two distinct, but one being.
what does Jesus say? He said if he bears wittness of himself, what is that? there is Another who bears wittness of me.
that was His Father he was talking about, look it up.
Jesus said two. not one, but TWO. Him and His Father.
Jesus said if a man love me, my Father will love you, and WE shall make OUR abode with you.
look up WE and OUR Mary.
Jesus took the book out of His Fathers hand.
The Father said this is my beloved Son in whom I am well pleased as Jesus His Son was in the water, while at that moment the Holy Spirit descended upon Him.
Now I know why Paul told woman not to teach, but it is not just you, many men hold to that satanic doctrine of Oneness.
If you believe that the Father is Jesus, then you reject the person of Jesus.
the name of Jesus will not get you to heaven if you reject Jesus Christ.
In revelation 21.22, which is the end of revelation where all things are revealed at that point. John still sees the Father and His Son, they are the temple of it.
Acts 7.55 Being filled with the Holy Spirit, Stephen looked up and seen Jesus on the right hand of God.
Mary, you need help, I call oneness, nutty professorism,
as a oneness believer told me god can be compared to what Eddie Murphy did in the nutty professor.
Mary you have a god who talks to himself, you can have that nutty false pagan god.
The Lord God of Isreal revealed Himself as three, distinct persons, of the One and Only Lord God of Isreal.
Mary your doctrine says Jesus the Son never co-existed with His Father at any time, neither did he exist before he was born of Mary.
lets see what Jesus said.
John 17.5 Jesus say, Glorify me O Father, with the Glory in which I had with you, before the world was.
Mary, if I was you I would stop listening to your pagan pastor, and pick up the Bible.
Oneness is a joke. the oneness god to me reminds me of a drunk stupid man I use to know.
it’s sad that there are people who actually buy this doctrine, people who believe in oneness are dumb as a bag of rocks, or they just never read the bible.
I give Glory To Him, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
For the Father sent His only begotten Son to die on a cross for all who believe in Him, and Jesus sent the Holy Spirit, who reveals to us the Father and the Son.
thats why Jesus, just like He called His Father Another, He called the Holy Spirit Another, One like Him, who proceeds from the Father.
ps, Mary, it’s Jesus, not juses, well maybe you got it right, maybe juses is the oneness god.
Jehovah is the Christian God, Who consists of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
Jesus is the name of His Son.
Mary, don’t quit your day job, but as for other woman teaching, I am all for it if they preach the God of the Bible.
Mary you just go and preach about juses, and the nutty professor, write a book. trust me there will be flocks of oneness believers ready to make you queen.
As long as it’s not Jesus Christ in whom they hate, they good.
Scott Perkins.
GOD IS TRIUNE.
DEAL WITH IT.
Early church councils or synods is one of the best studies in the field of historical theology. It is a reliable basis to know the heretical doctrines of our time as it has been already condemned in the past. I disagree with the doctrine of oness pentecostalism which denies the orthodox teaching of trinity.The proponent of such view(modalism) is the heretical Sabellius who once was condemned in the past. I therefore, encourage everyone to look to the past mistakes of others for us to know the true Christian faith.
William O. Poloc Sr.
John 17:3 just about sums it up:
“And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.”
Definitely more than 1, but who truly knows the “absolute” truth about God’s word other than God Himself. God’s word and its interpretation is contextually based on historical, ethnic and traditional information, yet that does not assure our (human) dispositional stances.
I propose the Father, in His infinite wisdom, gave us His word, His Son and His Holy Spirit as a testimony of His love for us. I further propose that the Father’s will, in all this, is a restorative process whereby we are reunited with Him in that love through a personal and everlasting relationship. If you will, a return to the joy filled walks and talks of the pre-sin days of Adam and Eve.
Am I a Biblical scholar? No! Do I love my Eternal Father, His Son Jesus Christ and His Holy Spirit? You bet! Do I believe in salvation and its scriptural requirements? Yep! Do I know if the creation, as revealed in Genesis, is factual? I do not know! I believe in the truth of scripture, but as for my total and irrefutable understanding of it, I leave to God. One day, we will all know the absolute truth! Is Jakes a heretic? I do not think so! Why, because he preaches the truth about Christ, His Gospel and His resurrection. He does not twist the truth of the Cross or God’s gift of salvation through His Son Jesus Christ.
Sometimes, I believe we allow our zeal and good intentions to cloud our judgment. Jesus died to free us from the bonds of sin and the Law. Why would we want to get ourselves all tangled up in the debates of religiosity? Religion and worship is not conforming to a set of laws, but a true surrender of ourselves to our Creator, His will and His purpose/s for our lives. It is through that dedication that we are filled with His love, peace and joy, and we willingly follow His every whisper. If you are guided by Him in love, there is no law against you!
Could I be wrong in my “opinion?” Yep, but my heart belongs to Him. I am redeemed and justified by the precious blood of His Son Jesus. I walk and talk with Him each day and allow His love to flood my being. In His presence, I have peace, joy, forgiveness, Love, self-control, faithfulness, gentleness, goodness and longsuffering (not necessarily in that specific order).
How about you?
Selah … Alan