For most of the morning and into the early afternoon, I had business to attend to. But I was still able to visit my favorite spot—my faithful Christian bookstore.
I believe it’s the best Christian bookstore there is. I just got Chris Tomlin’s lastest, Hello Love, for $7 plus tax on sale. The NLT Study Bible has a shelf to itself, and then what caught my eyes again: New Voices/Emerging Leaders.
Half an isle is devoted to Emerging leaders/writers like Bell, McLaren, McManus, Miller, Bell, and so on. They are not mixed in with the likes of Swindoll, Zacharias, MacArthur, Sproul, Piper, Carson, Wright, Alcorn, and so on.
So in this Christian bookstore that I frequent, I know where to find my Emerging Leaders. 
Man I’m so sick of hearing about Emergent. I liked some of the things they were saying at first, but now they’ve just become a brand. It seems all they care about now is selling more books and having more conferences.
Bryan
Bryan L, I thought you were down with them. This come as quite a surprise to me. Or are you being sarcastic?
No I’m serious. Every time I hear about them I just roll my eyes. It’s not all their fault. Their critics are the ones that helped them get so much interest from retailers and publishers. It’s sort of the Davinci code phenomenon. It just seems like they forgot what their purpose was.
Bryan
Bell must be especially popular.
Jeff
I got you. I’ve read a few McLaren and I like what I’ve read so far. These guys remind me of the classic Apology of Socrates, in which it is said that Socrates wat the gadfly and the State was the lazy Steed. The gadfly had to stir the steed into action, but Socrates was not without his personal problems.
As a footnote, I listened to McManus sermon that he delivered at Boyd’s church. Apparently Boyd doesn’t have a problem with his kind.
Jeff, the bookstore usually plays this video of Bell.
Man I couldn’t stand McManus’ book. Hey, even Boyd makes mistakes. It’s not like he’s Gordon Fee or something.
; )
Well, from what McManus said in his intro, it sure sounds like they’re buddies. Fee?
I’m not surprised Boyd would be friends with him. He’s a really cool guy and not at all judgmental. Plus he likes people he sees as living and speaking radically. My main problem with McManus’ book was that he seemed like he was also trying to build his own brand complete with a slogan, “the Barbarian way”. He also seemed to like talking abut himself (from what I remember). It was so annoying.
Yeah, Fee doesn’t make mistakes like that (or any at all for that matter).
: )
Bryan
I really thought the emerging church had something going on a few years back, but then I realized their “newness” was just another type of rhetoric. They are extremely anti-propositions, but have created a rhetoric where they simply make their own propositional theology through questions.
Instead of saying, “Hell isn’t really a literal place, and Jesus isn’t going to send anyone there,” they ask, “What if our concepts have been wrong? What if our most treasured concepts were simply a result of modernity? What if hell isn’t truly a ‘place’ at all, but just a symbol? What if Jesus, who talked more about now than eternity anyways, loved people so much that no matter what he promised that they would spend eternity together?”
After a set of questions like this they move on. Of course, there is nothing wrong with questioning our beliefs…that’s really healthy, but it gets to the point whenever you realize that the rhetoric above is simply propositional in the form of question. Whenever everyone in the movement is asking basically the same questions and isn’t part of the movement unless they hold this same spirit of question, then they have become propositional.
Ok, so I guess he’ll like me (haha). McManus did speak about himself a whole lot in that sermon I listened to. But I wasn’t impress with his handling of the text, though.
Yeah, Fee is quite exact in his handling of the text.
Ranger, I read that McLaren wants us to reconsider whether homosexuality is really a sin.
It seems like you have a handle on the Emerging literature out there.
I think Erwin McManus is only loosely part of the emerging church, kind of like how some still consider Mark Driscoll to be part of it.
Ok, I did see Driscoll in that section as well. But Driscoll seems to be a strange animal. He’s in the company of Piper as well. Interesting!
TC, you may want to think about wearing a necklace made of garlic when you visit that bookstore.
Stan, that’s a good one.
I love the sales there, nonetheless.
I can’t stand Driscoll.
Boyd is slightly cagey when speaking about the emergents. He gave a talk a while back – not on a sunday morning and said he didn’t agree with everything they did BUT practically they are very kingdom oriented so he loved that. he’s very good at not commenting too often on other people and generally finds the positive in them.
I really like Driscoll for some reason.
Perhaps he’s a redneck of sorts.
Driscoll is a Reformed Emergent – and that’s why he is so popular. What takes some guys hours to dress up and put in uncertainties, he just shoots from the hip.
Not to mention he has a firm doctrinal base – unlike the rest of the moronic Emergent nonsense.
Douglas,
I pulled up the definition of moronic online and came up with: having a mental age of between seven and twelve years; behaving in the manner of a moron; idiotic; stupid .
I might prefer to label them as insipid which is ironic considering what the emergents try to be. Acting all philosophical, super spiritual, and relevant they come off as unintelligent, quick and harsh, not thought out or lacking interest or significance or impact.
I guess sense emergent is such a diverse movement, both terms have their place.
Douglas, I’d like you to expand on the term ‘moronic Emergent nonsense’ a bit more if you wouldn’t mind.
I guess Driscoll being reformed and arrogant to boot is my main issue with him. I don’t like his theology and I don’t like his attitude.
Stan, I’ve never read Driscoll or listened to him. I just know he’s popular.
Dougals, a Reformed Emergent, Is that a new label? How is that? What is meant by the term?
Ferg, I guess you’re not for his calvinism you mean.
Ferg,
What is so wrong about Reformed theology? Granted – his attitude is way close to the edge but he has a firmly evangelical theological base and teaches the Word – not personal philosophy. He’s not arrogant – he just needs to calm down his approach to dealing with heterodox/heretical folks.
TC,
It’s just combining his two main influences – he’s Reformed in that he holds to the doctrines of grace and has a very “5-sola” belief. He’s Emergent in that he believes that the methodology of the Church needs a tune-up, which I disagree slightly with, but it does not mean that the main content of what he says is wrong. If anything he has more sound doctrine in him than a lot of folks who have been in ministry long enough to be his dad.
Douglas, thanks for the extra info. I do believe the Church needs to get back to the central message of the Jesus and Paul. I have no disagreement there.
I do believe the Church needs to get back to the central message of Jesus and Paul.
Would you care, by chance, to reword that? I’m a little uncomfortable with the suggestion that Paul is the equal of Christ when it comes to the NT message.
Would you care, by chance, to reword that? I’m a little uncomfortable with the suggestion that Paul is the equal of Christ when it comes to the NT message.
El, I read Paul as building on the foundation Christ laid (1 Cor 3:10-11). Though Jesus is also missional, I see Jesus as more seminal than Paul who seems more missional. But Paul does build on the foundation of Christ.
I read Paul as building on the foundation Christ laid
Oh good, I thought I was going to have to take you to the woodshed for a minute… though I wonder if you view the other NT authors as any more or less authoritative than Paul, given their Jew vs. Gentile missional focus, respectively.
I’m sure glad I avoided the woodshed.
Well, Paul had to deal with more theological issues than the other NT writers once local churches were being established outside of Jerusalem.
But all these local churches seemed to be mixed, even those to whom James wrote.
I’m not too sure that we can press the “Jew vs. Gentile missional focus” too much. outside of Jerusalem.
Douglas – What is so wrong about Reformed theology?
)
How long do you have?
I don’t think it’s appropriate for me to get in to my main gripes in this post but basically I’m not a 5 point calvinist so as most things in reformed theology come down to this, I don’t like it. simple as.
I appreciate it and I’m learning more and more about it but I don’t think it fully represents the God I see through scripture. I’m sure you’ll disagree and I respect that. That’s why I don’t want to get into specifics cause then we could trade verses on why each of us believes what we believe for a 1000 comments!
So basically – you don’t like “Calvinism” because it doesn’t it doesn’t square with your definition of God and His love and not because it is anto-Scriptural. At least you are honest…
Actually Douglas, Ferg said “I appreciate it and I’m learning more and more about it but I don’t think it fully represents the God I see through scripture.”
Implicit in that statement is that he doesn’t believe Calvinism accurately represents the God of the Bible, thereby meaning he doesn’t see Calvinism as properly scriptural.
Bryan
Amen and amen!
Thank you Bryan L, for the clarification. How on earth did I misread that
Nick – I’ll let that one lie LOL.
I highly recommend reading THE BARBARIAN WAY by Erwin McManus. This is a very challenging book.
Also, if anyone enjoys listening to Podcasts of sermons, I would recommend checking out the MOSAIC Podcast before judging McManus. He is a great speaker and teacher. It might surprise you that he is a Baptist!
A Baptist, but a Barbarian Baptist, I say.
Thanks, Nothingman.