One pastor encouraged his congregants to bring their firearms to church—a gun in one hand and a Bible in the other:
Ken Pagano, the pastor at New Bethel Church, prepared to try a Heckler & Koch MP5 submachine gun at a shooting range.
Ken Pagano, the pastor of the New Bethel Church here, is passionate about gun rights. He shoots regularly at the local firing range, and his sermon two weeks ago was on “God, Guns, Gospel and Geometry.” And on Saturday night, he is inviting his congregation of 150 and others to wear or carry their firearms into the sanctuary to “celebrate our rights as Americans!” as a promotional flier for the “open carry celebration” puts it. (read more…)
The pastor continues:
“God and guns were part of the foundation of this country,” Mr. Pagano, 49, said Wednesday in the small brick Assembly of God church, where a large wooden cross hung over the altar and two American flags jutted from side walls. “I don’t see any contradiction in this. Not every Christian denomination is pacifist.” (emphasis added)
“God and guns were part of the foundation of this country”—so we should have a bunch of gun toting believers? This is madness!
Pastor Ken Pagano will have to give an account for this madness.
Well, I am in the AG and I see a HUGE contradiction in what he is saying and doing. this is pretty embarassing for some of us AG folk. He also claims to be reformed and promotes a puritan website which argues Arminianism is heresy – this goes against a lot in the AG. You can read my wife Debbie’s guest article on my blog to know what we think.
Brian, I feel the same way about some of those SBC messengers.
Some AG folk as reformed? I never thought that could happen!
Let me check the article by Debbie.
I don’t recall the AG ever taking a position on reformed beliefs. I know of a few reformed AG pastors but most are synergistic leaning. Interestingly, the AG church I started attending taught, a little, predestination out of Romans in one if the first gatherings I attended.
I’m fine with firearms but I don’t think Pagano understands the negative impression this is going to leave. It looks immature. They could have done this differently.
I looked at the churches website and I have a feeling the pastor has got into attitude driven Calvinism; not good.
Bryon, pastor Pagano wasn’t thinking clearly.
“The Bible, guns, and calvinism,” how about that!
Shades of the wild west . . . AND a submachine gun to boot!
Sad thing is there are so many churches this might have happened in. Could have just as easily been SBC. . .
Seems a refocus is needed. What is our purpose? To remind everyone of our rights Americans or to proclaim Jesus?
I’m all for the right to bear arms, but in church? C’mon!
I don’t care about the guns, though the publicity stunt is a bit cheesy. Also, it gives people who don’t like guns one more story about silly people and guns. Most people who have guns around here are a bit more serious about it than this. Hopefully they all practiced safe firearm handling.
“Shades of the wild west”- I like that Bitsy. But you’re right with the focus thing.
Nick, I’m of the same view.
Nathan, “publicity stunt”? The pastor seems rather serious to me. Just misguided.
If you believe in the right to bear arms why not bring them to church? Seriously.
Do people who own guns not think it’s a check on their conscience that they can’t bring them to church?
Just a thought. I’m not condemning people who own guns, please hear that. I just have no idea why kingdom loving people need to own guns. Jesus definitely would not own a gun whether he had the right to or not!!
What is the point of a gun?
Ferg, setting is everything.
For me, it’s really just a default position without much thought. It’s wholly subjective for me.
Do you want to expand on that “kingdom loving people” concept?
debbie’s thoughts:
http://www.examiner.com/x-12053-Phoenix-Pentecostal-Examiner~y2009m6d25-Gun-Celebration-in-Church
In South Africa in 1998 we had the St James Church massacre in Kenilworth. Four APLA terrorist walked into church armed with M26 handgrenades and R5 assault rifles (think M16 machine gun). They just opened fire on the congregation killing 11 people and wounding 58 more. When one of the congregants fired back they fled. If that man wasn’t armed they would have tried to wipe out everyone. The attackers also had petrol bombs that they wanted to burn the church down with but instead they ran…
The four attackers was later convicted and then received amnesty through the Truth and Reconciliation Commission. The victims, inclucing the gun owner, later reconciled with the attackers.
Responsible gun ownership – yes.
Does the Ten Commandments allow self defence – yes but not murder – TC your hebrew comments please.
Do I want to belong to a church where the pass-key is a fire arm?? No.
In 1 Cor 12-13 Paul complains that everyone seems to be devisive with their own pet ministries. It seems to be the same these days with everyone having their own money-spinning pet subjects whether gun-ownership, ‘God just wants you to be happy’, evolution, the rapture, etc etc….
Surely the only message we need to be passionate about is the Good News about Jesus. While we are spending so much time and money on our pet subjects people are dying unsaved!
I just don’t think it’s right for people who are meant to demonstrate Jesus to have guns.
Guns are weapons used to kill people or animals.
I know particularly of one extremely Godly man who has a gun and it doesn’t in any way change how I feel about his relationship with Jesus so anyone here reading this who owns a gun, please don’t feel any judgment.
It’s a personal thing that I just don’t understand. Even when it comes to protecting my family I just couldn’t use a gun to do it. I’d just ask Jesus. I know that sounds trite and we may all end up dead one day, but at least I wouldn’t have blood on my hands.
I’m also thankful that Irish people (and most irish police) have no rights to bear arms and I’ll be voting that it stays that way if it ever went to election.
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Ferg:
Because in the general American church you wouldn’t need one. The case Elna cites seems to be a rare one, and definitely not something I’ve heard about over in this part of the world. I see the point of owning guns to be protecting your home, hunting, or sport shooting, none of which are done in church. If a church is so dangerous that one feels they need to bring their gun to protect themselves then perhaps that church should employ professional security. I’d personally change churches if it was that dangerous.
IMHO It’s a political stunt (or maybe just a publicity one) that has no place in the church.
I’m all for the right to bear arms, but I sure wouldn’t want to be in a sanctuary with 150 people carrying firearms in this day and age.
At the very least this is a misuse of pastoral authority. If Ken Pagano wishes to be an activist he needs to become a politician and if he wishes to teach American history he needs to become a teacher. The pulpit is suppose to be used to preach God’s Word not push one’s political agenda.
Martin.
Allow me to add that in my experience, pastors generally make poor American history teachers. I witnessed that in my church just yesterday morning. While my pastor usually preaches the Word verse-by-verse, yesterday morning he tried to make a point from American history. It is not that I totally disagree with his point. The problem is that (a) some of the things he said were not accurate and (b) he ignored several important contextual factors. Anyone in the church who is familiar with American history could probably point his mistakes out in their sleep. It was a sad example how my point that pastors generally make poor American history teachers.
The reason is that they often know just enough to make them dangerous but not enough to make informed statements. More importantly, I think it is an absolute disgrace when pastors start preaching history and stop preaching the Bible. I know of pastors who have turned their churches into American history classes. In doing so they are misusing the pulpit and their authority as pastors.
Martin.
Ferg, I understand your point of reference. It’s a tough call, even for me.
Nick, I’m with you on where the gun should be. Simple.
Bitsy, me either!
Martin, well-stated.
In fact, just yesterday I was saying to myself that I needed to get a handle on American history. Well, I decided to watch the HBO John Adams, as a start. Thanks, Martin.
The ‘sword of the Spirit’ is our main weapon. Concentrating on guns in church is getting away from what church/assembly should be about.
I’m all for owning a gun. But if members of a church bring guns and a lone gunman comes into the church and the church members, many who aren’t properly trained for this sort of a situation start shooting, can you imagine the dangers of ‘friendly fire’? If they want to protect their assembly, have a person or two who are well trained sit in the back.
Keep the politics out of church. How about everybody bring Bibles they don’t need to church so that others can be well equipped?
Jeff
Keep the politics out of church. How about everybody bring Bibles they don’t need to church so that others can be well equipped?
Jeff, that’s a better solution!
I own several firearms and look forward to my next purchase.
I have personally saved the lives of three people (my family) with the use of a 357 magnum. I didn’t even fire a shot.
I’m with Charlton Heston: They will have to take my gun from my cold, dead hands.
Dave, it is a tricky matter, but the politics of it is another matter.
Stan, you’re the man!
Dave, I really don’t mean to judge and that’s not my heart.
It’s more the reasoning that because something is in the american constitution that therefore it’s Godly and people have a ‘right’ to own a gun.
I just genuinely don’t understand the bravado of ‘I own a gun and I’m proud’.
It’s probably purely cultural so please don’t feel judged, it’s just something I don’t understand.
Guns are just plain fun to shoot. If they weren’t so expensive, I would probably have at least five or six more than I do now. Same thing goes with knives. They are fun to use, collect, look at, sharpen, etc. Hmm, same thing goes for books too.
Nathan, there your go.
I keep forgetting to buy a good knife. Thanks for the reminder Nathan.
I keep forgetting to buy a good book. Thanks for the reminder, Nathan
About the gun topic, though…
).
I’m a single Mom. I live in Florida, and I sometimes sleep with my windows open. It freaks my friends out. Maybe it’s stupidity or naivete (I don’t live in Miami, at least
I’m not actually opposed, in general, to people having guns to keep themselves safe. But, for me, I don’t know–it feels like leaning on having a gun to keep me safe makes me feel less safe, like I’m actually perpetually IN danger.
Of course, I’m a feeler, and if I thought about it more instead of basing it on how I feel most safe, perhaps I’d make a different decision.
However, even though I’m not against people having and using guns, in general, it’s a bit bizarre to think of a pastor preaching on it, and then topping it off with encouraging people to do so.
Elna, I wish we were living in a world where these actions were not with us. But they are. And some of these difficult questions come down to the individual since Scripture is not explicit one way or the other.
TC,
John Adams is a great series.
Martin.
There was a shooting in CO just a year or so ago, that was stopped short by a woman who was armed. It happens more than most people are aware. At the same time as this church shooting, there was a mall shooting that was all over the news for weeks. Did the church shooting get less press b/c the lady fought back, or because it had to do with Christians, who knows.
http://www.newswithviews.com/baldwin/baldwin419.htm
http://www.snubnose.info/wordpress/concealed-carry/the-christian-gun/
http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/article4086.html
There was a shooting in CO just a year or so ago, that was stopped short by a woman who was armed. It happens more than most people are aware. At the same time as this church shooting, there was a mall shooting that was all over the news for weeks. Did the church shooting get less press b/c the lady fought back, or because it had to do with Christians, who knows.
Here are some links to this story:
here,here and here.
Good thoughts!
It is unfortunate that politics is what is thought of in connection with a firearm almost immediately. In most churches that allow you to carry, it is in the desire to provide protection to the people of the congregation, no more, no less. Whether that is appropriate theologically is always a good discussion to wrestle through, no matter which way you fall on the issue. It has almost nothing to do with politics for most. Obviously for this pastor it does, and that is unfortunate.
If that is where your searching of the Scriptures has led you, then I applaud you in standing by your convictions. I do, however, take issue that you say you don’t think its right. That is a judgement. I have weighed these issues with a lot of prayer and searching over the past year, and have come to conclusions that are different than yours. A firearm is a tool, whether that is for family defense or hunting. The evil comes from the user, not the object. Most Christians who object to guns (that I have interacted with, anyway) say similar things about “just ask Jesus” for protection. That may be a legitimate response, but it is very often not applied consistently. Do you have auto or medical insurance? Door locks on your house? Wear seat belts while driving? Is Jesus not sufficient protection in those situations? If not, then why doesn’t that apply to defense?
Most Christians who have come to an informed decision to use a firearm for protection (as opposed to those who really are just gun nuts) have also concluded Scripturally that the blood would not be on their hands, but on the aggressor’s own hands. I can provide some info on this if you wish.