C.J. Mahaney is a Charismatic Calvinist and leader of Sovereign Grace Ministries. He pastored Covenant Life Church in Gaithersburg, Maryland, until 2004, when he handed the pastorate over to a then 29 year old—Josh Harris.
I’m sure CJ has a lot to offer in terms of sound pastoral advice to a young pastor like myself. But he makes it rather difficult for me to listen to him.
Here’s why: he takes forever to get to what he really wants to say.
I don’t mind a few introductory remarks. But don’t go on and on about the weather, the traffic, and the like.
Read the text, offer a prayer of you wish, and then get to the Word.
I’ve tried…
Sounds a lot like Dr. Norman Geisler. A bunch of stories before he finally gets to it; totally irritating.
Bryon, a bunch of stories to begin with is quite irritating to me.
I quite like his style of preaching. Seems much more personal and not like “Let me come, do this and get out.” Not to mention he is absolutely hilarious…
I am a ‘fan’ of Mahaney’s. I hesitate to use that word, but whatever.
I do share your disdain for sermons/introductions that just won’t get to the point! I feel sometimes as if the preacher is trying to convince his parishioners that he is justified in preaching what he is about to preach. In the church = unnecessary. Sermon introductions, I’m afraid, all too often die the death of a 1,000 qualifications when this is the case.
TC –
He runs one of the most systematically abusive churches out there. There are about a 1/2 dozen blogs dedicated to serious, serious problems with his churches which range from:
Terrible abuses of church discipline, as a matter of systematic practice
Incompetent and harmful counseling
High levels of sexual disfunction and dissatisfaction as a result of the process he has put in place
All sorts of entanglements that go so far they may cross over into actual legal violations of SGM member church’s 501c3 status
I don’t think you are doing yourself any harm by picking different leaders for mentors.
TC, those are some harsh words to state. I have known CJ for 25 years and having been a member of one of those churches I can tell you that the statements you make are grossly false. He is an honest, humble, faithful, follower of Jesus Christ. The church disciplines you speak of were done biblically, and after extensive and accurate biblical steps. It grieves me that you would base your account of him on blogs from people, who for whatever reason, have a conflict with CJ and instead of working it out biblically with the man, decide to blog it on the internet in a way of slander. If you ever met him, you would see for yourself, these accusations are false. God be with you..
Douglas, I guess I’ll never know until I’m able to get pass his intros.
Deek, I have friends who are, but he’s not working for me.
CD, I’ve never really heard of the moral and legal issues you’ve pointed out at Covenant Life.
But I do like Josh Harris.
In addition to my blog:
http://www.sgmsurvivors.com/
http://sgmrefuge.com/
http://spiritualtyranny.com/
http://ikissedsgmgoodbye.blogspot.com/
http://undertheterebinthtree.wordpress.com/
http://ikdg.wordpress.com/
http://voicegrace.blogspot.com/
CD, I’ve heard Josh Harris the homeschooling issue. I know that they’re not hypercalvinist, and they’re pretty much complementarian.
But I find it strange that so many sites are devoted toward criticizing SGM.
Neither am I saying that they’re without problems. CJ continues to move in the company of well-respected and influencial guys like Dr. Al Mohler.
Are guys like Mohler turning a blind eye and a deaf ear to all that is happening in SGM?
TC, Having read multiple posts from the links above, and at other websites, it would appear that some people have serious issues with Biblical authority. Of course we all do to some degree.
Whether it be leaders in the church: Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they are keeping watch over your souls, as those who will have to give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with groaning, for that would be of no advantage to you. (Hebrews 13:17)
I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet. (I Timothy 2:12)
Or the government: Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. (Romans 13:1)
Or in the home: Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife even as Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its Savior. Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit in everything to their husbands.
(Ephesians 5:22-24)
Likewise, wives, be subject to your own husbands, so that even if some do not obey the word, they may be won without a word by the conduct of their wives, when they see your respectful and pure conduct. (1 Peter 3:1-2)
Stan, I hope that is not the real reason. Church discipline is of the Lord for the purity of his bride.
Are guys like Mohler turning a blind eye and a deaf ear to all that is happening in SGM?
Yeah, I think so. I think there are a bunch of reasons.
1) C.J. isn’t in any of these groups. He isn’t to any direct any oversight at all. There is no one to complain to except the secular world. And SGM dismisses secular criticism.
2) What goes on in SGM is very a very atypical sort of abuse. I wrote a post about this Sovereign Grace Ministries’ use of demotivational methods. The evangelical world is setup for things like embezzlement, or sex scandals. They aren’t really set up for someone integrating brainwashing techniques into church culture.
3) SGM is theologically orthodox. The world cult is used to mean:
a) A heretical group….
b) A highly controlling and destructive organization…..
Most Christian feel that group has to meet both criteria to be a “cult”, and hence they won’t use the term of a theologically orthodox church.
4) Paige Patterson in particular has been looking for ways for SBC churches to establish more authority. C.J. is in some sense providing a model of how to have a church which has meaningful discipline in a consumer culture.
5) C.J. and Josh Harris sell lots of books and tickets.
6) They also pay high consultancy fees to SBC stars.
7) I think there is a feeling that SGM may join the SBC and picking up a successful denomination
SGM doesn’t punish family members nor practice total shunning. On the other hand they build ties with whole families. People don’t want to end up being completely isolated by going fully public with their stories.
9) SGM hasn’t had a real disaster yet. While people have been humiliated and lost all their friends, they haven’t “gone postal” as a result. While they may have done a bad job regarding counseling abused women they haven’t had a death yet. Their involvement with child on child rape so far been limited and it is hard to point a finger directly at them. If something real bad happens then you get a reporter to do an expose, and then mainstream coverage and then….
I’m running out of ideas but I’m sure if I thought about it I could add more to the list. But yeah for a denomination with that few churches the number of instances of people believing they were abused and mistreated is massive.
CD, you’ve given all who’re interested quite a mouthful to chew on.
But SGM coming under SBC would something.
Are SG churches autonomous?
Only SBC local churches are the most autonomous of the leading denominations.
What do CJ and SGM have to teach SBC churches, in this respect?
Oh, no. It was something altogether different including drugs.
Stan, oh, no. I was referring to the Scriptures you quoted, not the link to Grace Baptist Church and so on.
TC –
I know of one church that was ordered to pay a member over 100, 000 because they handled it poorly.
You mean Guinn v. Church of Christ Collinsville?
Yes, indeed!
What ever happened to 1 Cor. 6?
Richard, Do you really see this text resolving the abuse issue and what should happen if abuse persists?
TC: I was refering to the court case.
Richard, I got you.
CD, fair to me as well.
“:Are guys like Mohler turning a blind eye and a deaf ear to all that is happening in SGM”
Yes. Happens all the time. Usually, leaders just ignore such reports about those they have been promoting.
Besides, T4G would suffer if it all came out. Mohler is first and foremost a poltician and secondly a culture warrior.
If you want to get a feel for the authoritarian rule of SGM churches, I would suggest reading through the SGM survivors site and reading the many comments of those who have come out of this bizarre system. Do folks not realize that CJ came from the shepherding cult system of the 70′s?
I’m just sayin … if you dedicate an entire blog to the dissing of some pastor, you probably have bitterness problems….
The things that I’ve read about SGM in this blog and at least a few other blogs are pretty accurate. My family and I have been in a SGM church for many years. It’s not always obvious in the beginning how controlling the pastors and the care group leaders are, but after a while you realize that you’re having to “serve” who they tell you to serve, and it seems like what you do isn’t quite enough. I think that SGM churches have created a dependency on them and it has resulted in very self-focused, self-centered members, and they don’t make it very much of a joy to serve them either because the ones being served have an attitude of expentancy, that we all just line up to serve. Not that I don’t believe that members shouldn’t serve, I do, but I’ve never seen anything like this. One is expected to take meals to fellow care group members (and members MUST be in a care group) for every little thing. I’m sorry, even when I had a baby a toddlers underfoot I managed just fine. I didn’t expect meals to be lined up for a week for us. We’re not helpless!
And yes SGM does control activities done outside the church. No Bible study groups, book studies etc. that isn’t approved. If the pastors find out about a book that some of the members in the church are reading together, and if that book isn’t approved, the pastor will tell the whole congregation on a Sunday morning what has been discovered and will tell everyone that the book is not approved or recommended. Isn’t there a better way to go about something like that?
Also there’s a lot of manipulating of friendships. Certain members in our SGM church have been appointed to oversee certain ones in the church to the point of the person that’s being “protected” can only sit by the overseer during church. I’ve seen this done with someone who is almost 30 yrs. old and who should certainly be able to make up her own mind.
There is too much “accountability” meetings. Again, this creates a kind of dependency of the members on eachother. Aren’t we accountable to God? And is it really healthy to confess sins to someone on a weekly basis? Isn’t it God that we should be confessing to?
It all just seems to be a bit much. There has got to be a better way to do things.
Hmmm…church discipline is somehow perceived as abuse? Where have I heard that before?
For an example of church discipline, read Where Extraordinary Grace and Celestial Joy Meet.
TC, I hope that is not the real reason.
I don’t follow you.
Stan, a rejection of biblical authority. Sorry I wasn’t clear enough.
Oh, no. It was something altogether different including drugs.
Legally what happens is that SGM church plants and then the churches financially separate. In theory a church planting / congregational model.
In practice SGM has an episcopal structure and the board as well as the pastor report up the line. Unofficial statements carry a great deal of weight and the inner circle always gets their way.
Having this degree of coordination by supposedly independent entities is actually illegal. If someone in the IRS wants go after SGM and goes hard, they will likely win on 501c3 violations.
What do CJ and SGM have to teach SBC churches, in this respect?
The respect I meant was how to have effective church discipline in American society where x-members can join another church immediately. SGM members who are disciplined are often angry about it for years. This is what Patterson wants, a return when excommunication was a real threat.
I got you. Yes, I can see that episcopal structure you mentioned.
Church discipline is never easy to handle. I know of one church that was ordered to pay a member over 100, 000 because they handled it poorly.
If difficult to say from the information in those links whether Mahaney/SGM is an abusive group, and there’s too much information for me to review. Anybody can write anything on the internet.
I do think it’s ironic that Sproul, Piper, Driscol, who share a similar theology and have large groups, don’t have even half that kind of disgruntled following on the internet.
I know of one case involving SGM that was researched by a magazine and an institute and the details were confirmed. Essentially an out of process heresy excommunication for denying the authority of Gary Ezzo.
Which in my mind confirms:
1) They don’t care about due process
2) They confuse submission to them with submission to God
_________
Things I can confirm:
1) They practice heavy censorship and self censorship.
2) They attempt to control outside get togethers involving church members.
3) When various people have brought up pretty awful stories of church abuse and current members of SGM are on the sites, they don’t disagree on the facts just the interpretation.
4) When abuse is brought to their attention their behavior is to ignore it and attempt to discredit the witnesses. Generally legitimate pastors and denomination are very concerned if hear about stories of abuses going on under them. In most churches they may not want to hear from someone they excommunicated last week. But if that person 5 years later long after they have joined another church still says the church mistreated them.
If you mean Guinn she was excommunicated. In other words her church said that she should be interacted with like an unbeliever, she doesn’t have the right to redress of the church courts anymore.
If unbelievers think a church has wronged them and unable to work it out directly with the church they take it to the secular authorities. The court essentially upheld 1Cor 6, refusing her any protection up until the moment of resignation/excommunication. Basically they said, “up until she quits, she is yours to protect after that she’s ours to protect”. I think a fair ruling.
I think you’re just envious of how the Lord has used CJ.
Jun ang –
Envious? OK let’s go with theory. So what would be the basis of my envy? That deep down I would really like to be a leader of a fundamentalist reformed church noted for homeschooling and trying to bring back things like courtship but couldn’t cut it so instead I write articles about SGM abuse victims?
The problem with that theory is that even if true it doesn’t explain where the abuse victims come from.