This issue of Paul praying for the dead, which is based on a reading of 2 Timothy 1:16-18, was repeated in a post here by Polycarp.
This text apparently supports praying for the dead:
16 May the Lord show mercy to the household of Onesiphorus, because he often refreshed me and was not ashamed of my chains. 17 On the contrary, when he was in Rome, he searched hard for me until he found me. 18 May the Lord grant that he will find mercy from the Lord on that day! You know very well in how many ways he helped me in Ephesus. (2 Tim. 1:16-18, TNIV, emphasis added)
At the writing of this Letter, Onesiphorus appears to have died. I don’t believe he was just absent. Why would Paul be so emotional if Onesiphorus was just absent?
In the Cornerstone Biblical Commentary on 2 Timothy, John C. Laansma, associate professor of Ancient Languages and New Testament at Wheaton College, argues:
Certainly there is no basis here either for the idea of praying for the dead (assuming that Onesiphorus has died) or for the idea that God’s mercy is merited. What we do see here is a living example of Matthew 5:7 (the merciful shown mercy) and 25:36 (the Son of Man welcoming those who visited him in prison). (p. 155)
My impression is that Onesiphorus has died, and according to the Wheaton professor, Paul is simply echoing Matthew 5:7. Furthermore, the rest of Scripture does not support praying for the dead.
And one other point, this text is too unstable to lend itself to such a doctrine.
How does 1 Cor 15:29 fit in?
I don’t see any evidence that “this text is too unstable”. Nestle-Aland 27 doesn’t offer any textual variants affecting the prayer for the dead aspect of this.
But there are a number of ways of understanding this. One could be that the “him” at the start of verse 18 is a reference back to the household (a masculine noun) in verse 16. The two verses start almost identically, so in verse 18 the author could be repeating and extending the same thought rather than applying it to a different referent.
Alternatively, could this be little more than a polite way of referring to a dead person? In English we say “RIP” meaning “may he rest in peace”, a formula which surely goes back to the the mediaeval Catholic church. In another language I know, the polite thing to say is “May God have mercy” – most speakers of this language are nominal Muslims. These formulae are also used by evangelical Christians, except perhaps some of the more particular ones, without implying complete endorsement of the theology which gave rise to them, because they are the conventional polite expression. Maybe Paul didn’t intend any more than this in his “prayer” for Onesiphorus.
isn’t that one of the 30 explanations as quoted on the internet?
)
There is an apostolic denomination locally that does follow that practice. I was quite surprised by it never having been taught about it in my own church. (No I don’t follow the practice
Elna, when a tradition is based on a text like this, we need to let the whole of Scripture address the issue. So far, I haven’t seen the rest of Scripture supporting this tradition.
Nothing is intrinsically wrong with a tradition. Traditions are inevitable. But only when a tradition sets Scripture aside, we have a problem (see Mark 7:5-13).
I love a good conversation, TC, thanks for continuing it. Personally, I believe that One was dead, but will settle for absent if pressed.
I think you are right, that we have to take whole of Scripture – and seeing that we no need for a mediator between God and man except Christ, I cannot see Paul praying for the dead.
Further, I find myself in somewhat agreement with Peter – it could be a local phrase, such as RIP.
How careful we have to be with these details! But then was the iota suffix in the original manuscripts? They were not written consistently in ancient times. An interesting little puzzle for a real textual critic, not like myself.
Peter, I just consulted Philip H. Towner in the NICNT: “The background to this wish formula and idiom is the Greek OT” (fn: Gen. 27:28; 28:4; 43:14; Num. 6:26; Ruth 1:9 and so on. p. 482).
I don’t think it applies after death, as it is appointed unto man once to die, then the judgment. I am just questioning the idea that if prayer for the dead was allowed, then the person praying surely becomes a mediator – it falls to the person praying to be the Advocate of the dead person, thus removing the role of Christ.
Can we reject Christ in live, but then rest on the prayers of a Saint?
Polycarp, thanks for the clarification. I think I need another clarification: But we are to pray for one another, right?
How is praying for one another different than mediating for one another?
The Catholic practice includes pray for the sins of the dead. TC, while I may pray for mercy for you in different capacities, can I pray for your sins to be removed?
It seems to me that the what Roman doctrine alludes to is a place for souls that were not quite good enough. Paul’s prayer would maybe tilt the balance?
While I cannot pray in your behalf for your repentance (while yet living) surely I can pray that you will repent.
TC, in a moment of honesty, I thought that answering the claim would be easy – but it was not. So my post obliterating the Roman doctrine quickly disappeared to be replaced with questions.
Thanks again for this post.
Polycarp, my pleasure. But are you now sympathetic of the Roman tradition?
Absolutely not!
Let me offer a clarification – because of the dialog I found the answers that solidified my original opinion.
Ah!
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But…. is there a extra biblical source that says that Paul meant that O had died? or was this just a theologian jumping to conclusions?
When reading the scripture I don’t see death in it, just Paul wishing someone well
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OK, but if Stephen’s prayer had no “salvific import”, why do you think Paul’s for Onesiphorus did? Of course Paul didn’t really think his prayer would cause O to be saved eternally – presumably Paul held that as a Christian O was saved anyway. But it was a nice thing to say, and probably a traditional one.
Peter, this is exactly my point. I’m not disagreeing with you. We’re making the same arguments here.
Personally, I think reading 2 Timothy 1:16 without reading the previous verses removes its context.
2 Timothy 1:13-15
This is especially the case when we consider 2 Timothy 2:1-13 (the very next passage) speaks of entrusting what Paul had taught to RELIABLE people, and the need to endure hardship and persevere. There is no break in the letter here, it is merely a continuation of what Paul was speaking of in 2 Timothy 1:15-16
Without the context, one might think this was about praying for the dead, when in fact Paul was merely praying for mercy upon Onesiphorus and his family because Onesiphorus HAD been helpful to Paul, but (it seems to me) has deserted Paul.
Wbmoore, thanks for bring the larger context into play. Yeah, that’s really important in trying to understand this whole text.
I agree with everything you said until “it seems like Onesiphorus deserted Paul.” Why did you come to that conclusion?
TC,
The entire context of 2 Timothy 1:8-2:13 is Paul suffering for the Gospel and the need to endure hardship & persevere through it. Paul may have used One as an example of someone who persevered until the end, but it seems to me that Paul was speaking of who abandoned him and then spoke of One and how he HAD been helpful. Paul would have had np need to pray for mercy for One had One not abandoned the faith – Paul knew how people who are saved have no need for mercy at judgement time in addition to what they receive at salvation. So it is unlikely he would have prayed as he did for One if he had not abandoned the faith. This is supported in 2 Tim 2 by Paul telling Timothy to choose reliable men and his reminder of the need to persevere and not disown Christ.
WB, I agree that it would make sense in the context if Onesiphorus, like Phygelus and Hermogenes, is counted as one of the “everyone in the province of Asia” who had deserted Paul. After all, if he rendered service in Ephesus (v.18) that suggests he was one of the everyone in that province. The only question then is why Paul prays for mercy for O and his family but not for P and H.
In regards to the why, without it being explicit, we have to gather as much as we can from the context. Paul stated O had been helpful in the ministry. It seems O and his family were known by Timothy. It may be be P & H were not as well known by Timothy or Paul.
I know I would be very disappointed if someone close to me and helpful in the ministry abandoned the faith, and I would pray for him (and his family if I were friends with them as well), where I might not do so for others who abandoned Christ but were not close to me.
But whatever the reason, I have not seen scriptural evidence as to why Paul prayed for O & family but not P & H, so that part is only conjecture. The rest seems clear to me, though others are free to disagree (as I know some will).
The question about praying for the soul of one who has passed from this life really is about a deeper issue…… If addtional mercies can be found after death for anyone by the prayer of another who would intercede for him to God leads to additional conclusions. Certainly the prayer of a righteous man would not exclude Jesus as the Mediator between God and man. The additional conclusions on this topic lead to the question about the possibility that one may repent after death. The example that Jesus gave of the rich man that died only asked for relief (water) in his torment. He was not repentant for his sins that landed him in torment. He had a missionary desire for Lazarus to warn his family of torment, but still no confession of sin and no repentance. Observe that there was dialogue and communication, and that Father Abraham famous for his faith that justified him is the very deficiency of the rich the rich man that landed him in torment. Perhaps another question is this gentlemen: Did the One Mediator between God and man come to rescue men from their death or not? Was Jonah dead in the belly of the great fish? Did he find faith and repent while he was dead? Did Jesus say I will give you this one sign, just as Jonah was in the belly of the great fish 3 days, so must the Son of Man be in the belly of the earth 3 days? Have you ever had to comfort a parent or child with the fact that there is absolutely no hope whatsoever that they will ever see their loved one again? Is it true that the Hope of God does not disappoint? Is it true that the resurrection of Jesus does more for our faith than His death? Are we more justified in our faith by His resurrected life than by His death. Absolutely!! So why would one attempt to take the hope and prayers for a loved one away from a bereaved person. That bereaved person could be praying for someone to minister to that soul in prison. Did Jesus ever preach to souls in prison? Well of course He did. Does the Scripture say that He will never do that again? Well of course not. Hope does not disappoint and Jesus did not come on His mission to die and rise from death to disappoint us.
Dave, you’ve raised a number of questions. I only have one: Do you believe in a second chance after death?
It may be you are right, that O was held as an example of how to act. But it does not make sense that Paul, who KNOWS a saved person needs no more mercy other than what he received when he accepted Christ, would pray for God’s mercy upon O on that day. No, it makes more sense that O abandoned him also, along with P and H.
Wbmoore,
Granted that you’re right, Why does O household need to be shown the mercy of God? It makes sense more sense, that O, as an exception, has died and his family needs God’s mercy and so on.
I see the abandonment of Paul in Ephesus synonymously with abandoning Christ, because Paul spoke about being abandoned and then warned about disowning Christ. And because 2 Timothy 2:4 tells us of the need to teach reliable men who will endure. And verse 5 warning about needing to follow the rules to win the competition.
Rather an abandonment of Paul is an abandonment of active ministry but not of the faith. This is still my contention.
No, O HAD been useful, but did not endure, which is why Paul prayed mercy on him – while he was alive.
Why must O still be alive for Paul’s prayer to make sense?
Gentlemen:
This is the response from another Pastor:
Dave the Catholics believe in purgatory we do not!
The moment we die we are face to face with God like the rich men and Lazarus, there is nothing theologically that we can do for the dead according to Bible repentance and acceptance has to happen here on earth while we are alive so there is no second chance for the dead, this is God’s plan.
You can give some assurance in talking with the family that we have a merciful god and if that person made a decision on his last breath while alive than God for sure will have mercy on him but Jesus did not preach repentance to the dead, they will have to recognize by force that he is the King of Kings and Lord of Lords.
My questions are not rhetorical because they are in fact asking the questions that request an answer…….
I dd not say purgatory existed……..
Polycarp – The Scripture says God prepared a “great fish” to swallow Jonah. You may believe that Jonah did not die
in the fish. But there are other scholars that believe that
Jonah did in fact die in the “great fish”……
http://www.letusreason.org/Biblexp94.htm
For the Spirits in prison reference you may also believe the interpretation is incorrect but perhaps you may want to view another scholar’s opinion……..
http://biblelight.net/prison.htm
In reference to the question from TC Robinson, “Do I believe in a second chance after death for repentance?”
TC Robinson
Gentlemen: I am a “seeker of the truth”, I will be happy to answer that question if you will to answer the questions that I requested an answer……..
Please find below two views on repentance after death
No Second Chance After Death
http://www.probe.org/site/c.fdKEIMNsEoG/b.4220121/k.AEE8/Is_There_a_Second_Chance_to_Believe_After_Death.htm
http://www.calvaryprophecy.com/q1000.html
Chance After Death for Repentance
http://www.biblequery.org/jon.htm
http://www.thechristmind.org/jonas.htm
What do you believe the sign of Jonah teaches?
Polycarp,
The Scripture says that God preapared a “great fish”…..
Many scholars believe that Jonah did in fact die in the “great fish”……
Many scholars believe all the Scripture to be true and without error, including the fact that Jesus preached to spirits in prison leading a host of captives free…….
My questions are not rhetorical because they do in fact request an answer………..
TC Robinson,
I am a “seeker of the truth”, if Jonah did in fact die and get another chance, would God do that for others as well?
Blessings
Dave you quoted:
Even if Jonah died in the huge fish, the Matthew text you quoted is the beginning and end of the whole matter.
All about Jesus, not us.
Dave, I don’t think Mr. Henry every said that Jonah died, only that he was served as a picture. Remember, two things: 1.) A type and shadow of the real thing is not the real thing and 2.) Simply because Mr. Henry seemingly agrees, it in no way means that he is right.
Further, you haven’t dealt with 2.7 in which John says that he is still alive when he prays. If John himself said that he was alive, then what gives you the authority to deny him?
here he was dead
Jonah 2:2
And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the LORD, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice
this never said he was alive
Jonah 2:7
When my soul fainted within me I remembered the LORD: and my prayer came in unto thee, into thine holy temple
blessings
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Gentlemen:
I continue to believe the Jonah 2:2 reference to Sheol was his death. There are 3 possibilities….
1. NATURAL. In the first place, it has been well established that the phrase “three days and three nights” in ancient Hebrew usage was an idiomatic expression meaning simply “three days,” and was applicable even if the beginning and ending days of the period were only partial days. Thus it could refer to a period as short as about 38 hours. There is always some air in the whale’s stomach, and, as long as the animal it has swallowed is still alive, digestive activity will not begin (that is of course if it was a whale). Thus, Jonah’s experience could possibly have happened entirely with the framework of natural law.
2. MIRACLE. It is much more likely, however, that the event involved a divine miracle, as the Scripture strongly implies. The “great fish” was prepared and sent by God, as was the intense storm that threatened the ship on which Jonah was traveling. The storm ceased as soon as Jonah was cast overboard (Jonah 1:4, 15). In like manner, it was quite probable that God preserved Jonah’s life miraculously all through the horrifying experience.
3. RESURRECTION. A third possibility is that Jonah actually suffocated and died in the great fish and then God later brought him back from the dead. There are at least eight other such “resurrections” recorded in the Bible, as well as the glorious bodily resurrection of Christ—of which Jonah’s experience in particular was said by Christ to be a prophetic sign.
This is also implied by Jonah’s prayer, when he said: “…out of the belly of hell (i.e. “sheol,” the place of departed spirits) cried I, and thou heardest my voice” (Jonah 2:2).
In any case, it was a mighty experience, evidently well known and certified in his day, probably contributing in significant degree to the fact that all people of Ninevah repented and turned to God (Jonah 3:5) when Jonah returned “from the dead,” as it were, to preach to them.
Even in Jesus’ day, it was so well known that He could use it as a “sign” of His own impending death and resurrection, which were to constitute God’s crowning proof of the deity of His Son and the great work of salvation which He would accomplish on the cross for all who would receive Him.
“God now commandeth all men everywhere to repent: Because He hath appointed a day, in the which He will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom He hath ordained; whereof He hath given assurance unto all men, in that He hath raised Him from the dead.” -Acts 17:30, 31 (King James Version)
You remained convinced in what you believe, may God bless you. I have but one question left. Do you want prayers for mercy lifted for you after you die? If you have no need for further mercies, you have done very well. As for me, I want every possible mercy available while in the body or out of the body. In His presence here in this body or in His presence out of this body. If it helps you to believe that Jonah was alive 3 days, so be it. It helps me to believe that he received additional mercies, that the mercies of God do not stop after death……..
Gentlemen:
May God bless you as “iron shapens iron”, May you prosper for your work in His vineyard……
3 Other Scolars, not minimalists, that believe Jonah died:
Dr. Henry M. Morris also leans toward this view. He said,
The Lord Jesus confirmed the historicity of both Jonah and his experience in the “fish” by citing it as a type of his own coming death, burial and resurrection (Matthew 12:39, 40). In fact, these words of Christ probably indicate that Jonah, like Jesus, actually died and was then restored to life (Dr. Henry M. Morris, The Defender’s Study Bible, World Publishing, 1995, note on Jonah 1:17)……
Dr. M. R. DeHaan said,
The Lord Jesus Christ Himself vouches for the historicity and literalness of Jonah by seizing upon it as a type of His own literal Death and Resurrection. In Matthew 12:40, Jesus, in answer to His critics, who questioned His authority, says: “For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the fish’s belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.” Jonah most probably died and was resurrected……..
(M. R. DeHaan, M.D., Jonah – Fact or Fiction?, Zondervan Publishing House, 1957, Introduction)
J. Vernon McGee, holds the view that Jonah actually
died while in the belly of the great fish. The Hebrew word “sheol” is translated “hell” by the translators of the KJV Bible. McGee says this concerning the use of this word in the phrase, “out of the belly of hell”:
The longer I study the Book of Jonah, and Christ’s words in Matthew 12:39-41, the more I tend to agree with Dr. DeHaan that Jonah actually died while he was in the stomach of that fish. Christ literally died on the Cross, and rose again from the dead. And Christ used the experience of Jonah as the great Old Testament picture of His own death and resurrection. This was also the view of Dr. J. Vernon McGee, who went into great detail on this subject in his Thru the Bible Commentary (Dr. J. Vernon McGee, Thru the Bible, Thomas Nelson, 1982, volume III, pp. 749-755).
The phrase, “earth with her bars,” is Elizabethan English and this was a way death was spoken of in day the King James Bible was translated. There is no other way to interpret the phrase except to mean, “bars of death”.
Gentlemen:
There are many recent accounts of men and animals being swallowed by whales and days later being found alive….
This is no miracle, but only the realm of what is possible….
A true miracle is something that only God could do like bringing someone back from the dead, like making the lame to walk, the blind to see, the mute to speak, or the deaf to hear…….
A true miracle that Jesus referred to as the type of miracle that would happen in His death, burial, and resurrection….
Blessings…….
Sheol also means place of exile, or place of no return.
Jonah was sent into the belly of the fish as punishment for not obeying God. And before he died (for we see in Jonah 2:7 that his life was ebbing away, not that it was gone), he was vomited back up because he prayed to God.
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KJV states in verse 2 the belly of hell……
And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the LORD, and He heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and Thou heardest my voice….
“Out of the belly of hell and the grave cried I.’’ The fish might well be called a grave, and, as it was a prison to which Jonah was condemned for his disobedience and in which he lay under the wrath of God, it might well be called the belly of hell – Matthew Henry
Verse 7
When my soul fainted within me I remembered the LORD: and my prayer came in unto thee, into thine holy temple
Then I said, I am cast out of thy sight, and the apprehension of that was the thing that made his spirit faint within him. He thought God had quite forsaken him, would never return in mercy to him, nor show him any token for good again. He had no example before him of any that were brought alive out of a fish’s belly; if he thought of Job upon the dunghill, Joseph in the pit, David in the cave, yet these did not come up to his case. Nor was there any visible way of escape open for him but by miracle; and what reason had he to expect that a miracle of mercy should be wrought for him who was now made a monument of justice? How own conscience told him that he had wickedly fled from the presence of the Lord, and therefore he might justly cast him away from his presence, and, in token of that, take away his Holy Spirit from him, never to visit him more. What hopes could he have of deliverance out of a trouble which his own ways and doings had procured to himself? Observe, When Jonah would say the worst he could of his case he says this, I am cast out of thy sight; those, and those only, are miserable, whom God has cast out of his sight, whom he will no longer own and favour. What is the misery of the damned in hell but this, that they are cast out of God’s sight? – Matthew Henry
Verse 9 tells of the resurrection from death and salvation
that moved God’s hand of mercy
9 But I will sacrifice unto thee with the voice of thanksgiving; I will pay that that I have vowed. Salvation is of the LORD.
10 And the LORD spake unto the fish, and it vomited out Jonah upon the dry land.
Blessings…..
I wonder if Jonah’s experience can be compared with what are sometimes today called “near death experiences”, but sometimes also told as a person having died and come back to life. In that case Jonah would have experienced the horrors of death and could in some sense have died, but the whole thing was not necessarily miraculous.
I believe Dave is insistent that Jonah must have died to be a sign of Messiah’s own experience (Matt. 12).
Elna, I Cor. 15:29 fits in as a reference by Paul but not an endorsement of the practice. It was simply to highlight the absurdity of those who practice such but question the resurrection of the dead.
Peter, by “too unstable” I meant commentators not deciding clearly what the text means. Wrong choice of words. Next I’ll do a better job of anticipating the textual critic like yourself.
Yes, “him” pointing back to v.16, but it seems more natural for it to point back to v.17, where Paul is speaking of Onesiphorus actions in Rome.
And because of this, Paul offers his petition specifically for him.
“A polite expression” is what I went for in mind as well. Does Paul’s use of the optative support such?
isn’t that one of the 30 explanations as quoted on the internet?
)
There is an apostolic denomination locally that does follow that practice. I was quite surprised by it never having been taught about it in my own church. (No I don’t follow the practice
I am finding that I am starting to question a lot of tradition. Surely if tradition and doctrine was so important Calvyn and Luther would be in the wrong. If tradition seems in conflict with the Bible then obvious the tradition is wrong, and must be questioned.
Why go to so many convoluted arguments instead of just taking the bible as it is written? I honestly would like to know and am trying not to be critical. Please bear with me.
Is dōē an optative? That was my first thought. Then I thought that the dictionary at the back of my UBS Greek NT says it is an aorist subjunctive. But no, apparently with the iota subscript under the eta it is an aorist, but with it under the omega, as printed in these verses, it is an optative. How careful we have to be with these details! But then was the iota suffix in the original manuscripts? They were not written consistently in ancient times. An interesting little puzzle for a real textual critic, not like myself.
Polycarp, yeah, I like a good conversation too.
My second option would be One was absent.
But I still trying to understand what you mean by the mediatorship of Christ after a person has died.
How does Christ mediatorship apply after death? (Assuming you’re applying it to death)
Well done, TC. These verses in LXX are indeed examples of the optative dōē with God as subject, used in blessing formulae. But in none of them is the direct object eleos “mercy”, nor is the intended beneficiary a dead person. So it is not really the same wish.
Peter, whether Towner meant for Paul’s formula to be exact or simply drawing on the background of these OT blessing formulae, I’m not sure.
He simply says:”“The background to this wish formula and idiom is the Greek OT”
And even when drawing on the LXX, Paul takes liberty, as at Eph. 4:8.
Polycarp, thanks again. I do agree with your conclusions, esp. “Paul’s prayer would maybe tilt the balance?”
Peter’s suggestion of an equivalent of our R.I.P seems to be a viable option.
Stephen in the Bible prayed for the sins of those who were killing him to be forgiven, Acts 7:60. Was he wrong to do so?
Peter, Stephen wasn’t wrong. This prayer echoes that of Jesus in Luke 23.
A simple prayer for the forgiveness of their sin of ignorance, not one with salvific import.
OK, but if Stephen’s prayer had no “salvific import”, why do you think Paul’s for Onesiphorus did? Of course Paul didn’t really think his prayer would cause O to be saved eternally – presumably Paul held that as a Christian O was saved anyway. But it was a nice thing to say, and probably a traditional one.
Peter, I believe that Stephen was following the commands of Christ in Matthew 5.44. Christ never said it helped the persecutors, but that such a prayer was made so ‘that you may be children of your Father in heaven.’
Elna, Paul is addressing his household but not him. He’s not there. Either he is absent through death or travel. An option must be made by informed readers.
Or Paul is holding up One as an example of one who persevered to the end and did not desert him – hence, his two petitions.
Phygelus and Hermogenes were known by Timothy as well as Onesiphorus. Note what was said of each party: 1. P and H abandoned Paul, not the faith. 2. O seems to have died, but not in desertion of Paul.
Wbmoore, Why do you think P and H abandonment of Paul is equivalent to abandoning the faith?
P and H were also known by Timothy. The wording of the text suggests O has died and Paul holding him up as one who served faithfully to the end, unlike P and H.
TC, WB, that would be my assertation, looking at the text, is that Paul has a thought break. P and H did wrong, O and his family did it right. Paul lavishes praise on O, but is silent about anything that O might have done, if he did anything at all.
Of course, while Wb’s view brings a different light (and WB is well grounded in the Light), the goal is to show that Paul was not praying for the salvation of a dead man – to which I think we can all agree.
Dave, you have a lot of questions, rhetorical, I believe.
First, I do not think Jonah died in the whale. He was able to pray. It is possible that the Rich Man knew the totality of his fate, so only had compassion on his loved ones.
And no, I do not think Christ preached to the souls in hell/grave. I believe that that is an erroneous interpretation from the Middle Ages.
It may be you are right, that O was held as an example of how to act. But it does not make sense that Paul, who KNOWS a saved person needs no more mercy other than what he received when he accepted Christ, would pray for God’s mercy upon O on that day. No, it makes more sense that O abandoned him also, along with P and H.
I see the abandonment of Paul in Ephesus synonymously with abandoning Christ, because Paul spoke about being abandoned and then warned about disowning Christ. And because 2 Timothy 2:4 tells us of the need to teach reliable men who will endure. And verse 5 warning about needing to follow the rules to win the competition. And the encouragement/warning abut needed to not disown Christ in verses 11-13
No, O HAD been useful, but did not endure, which is why Paul prayed mercy on him – while he was alive.
Dave, I have not read to many ‘scholars’ that have that interpretation. Further, the Bible does not allude to Jonah’s death, as he was seen as living in the belly of the whale. 2.7 says that Jonah made his prayer while his life was ‘ebbing away’ (NET). If his life was not yet gone, then surely he was not yet dead.
Further, the majority of ‘scholars’ seem to be biblical minimalists.
The interpretation of that passage in Peter is a wrong one – and I side with Augustine.
Dave, Scripture does not say Jonah died.
Besides, Jonah’s experience in the belly of a huge fish serves only as a type in reference to Christ (Matt. 12:39ff).
That’s the beginning and the end of Jonah’s sign.
It is a confounding text to know if Jonah was dead in the belly of the “great fish”. However I don’t know many scholars that challenge the fact that it was a “great fish”.
Matthew 12:40? In the King James translation the word whale is used, but the Greek word is “ketos” which means a large fish. Yes this may appear to be a contradiction, but it does not take away from the meaning of the story……
Matthew Henry I do not believe is a minimalist…..
Now this sign of the prophet Jonas he further explains here; (v. 40) As Jonas was three days and three nights in the fish’s belly, and then came out again safe and well, thus Christ shall be so long in the grave, and then shall rise again.
[1.] The grave was to Christ as the belly of the fish was to Jonah; thither he was thrown, as a Ransom for lives ready to be lost in a storm; there he lay, as in the belly of hell (Jonah 2:2), and seemed to be cast out of God’s sight.
[2.] He continued in the grave just as long as Jonah continued in the fish’s belly
As Jonah on the third day was discharged from his prison, and came to the land of the living again, from the congregation of the dead (for dead things are said to be formed from under the waters, Job 26:5), so Christ on the third day should return to life, and rise out of his grave to send abroad the gospel to the Gentiles
Jonah died in the fish’s belly. It is amazing how many persons think that Jonah lived in the fish’s belly and therefore many well-meaning Christians seek high and low, turn heaven and earth upside down in a search for a fish it would prove nothing because Jonah died in the fish.
Jonah said that he went to sheol (the place in the heart of the earth where Jesus went) in Jonah 2:2. Jonah also said, “I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars was about me for ever: yet hast thou brought up my life from corruption, O Lord my God (Jonah 2:6).” Jonah’s soul was in the heart of the earth three days and three nights exactly as Christ was in the heart of the earth three days and three nights (Matthew 12:40).
Jonah was a picture of the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Jonah booked passage on a ship to flee from the presence of the Lord. God sent a great storm that threatened the lives of all that were on board. The attempts of the seamen to save themselves were futile. When the seamen asked how to be saved from the storm, Jonah said, “Take me up, and cast me forth into the sea; so shall the sea be calm unto you (Jonah 1:12).” Jonah had to die for those on the ship to be saved. Jesus had to die for those on the earth to be saved. Jonah gave up his life. Jesus gave His life.
Jonah’s body was entombed in the fish’s belly, while Jonah’s soul was in the heart of the earth. Jesus’ body was entombed in a rich man’s tomb while His soul was in the heart of the earth. Jonah was resurrected and his soul was brought up from sheol and re-entered his body which was in the fish’s belly. Jesus was resurrected and His soul was brought up from hades or sheol and re-entered His body which was in the rich man’s tomb.
The one sign that Jesus gave to prove His identity was the sign of Jonah. His critics demanded a sign. “Then certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying, Master, we would see a sign from thee. But He answered and said unto them, an evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas: For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale’s belly; so shall the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth (Matthew 12:38-40).”
The Bible tells us that Jonah was a sign to the Ninevites. Jonas body carried the marks of his death. His body was in a fish that tried to digest him for three days or 72 hours. Jonah probably had no hair anywhere on his body–No eyelashes, no eyebrows, no hair on his head or on his body. His skin must have been wrinkled and bleached by the powerful stomach acids. He was a sign. He had been resurrected, and it was obvious!
“For as Jonah was a sign unto the Ninevites, so shall also the Son of Man be to this generation.” Luke 11:30.
Jesus also carried the marks of His death in His body. Jesus said, “Behold my hands and my feet that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as you see me have.” (Luke 24:39).
Blessings
As for Augustine
A proof of a third place, or middle state of souls: for these spirits in prison, to whom Christ went to preach after his death, were not in heaven, nor yet in the hell of the damned; because heaven is no prison, and Christ did not go to preach to the damned. (Challoner) — St. Augustine, in his 99th epistle, confesses that this text is replete with difficulties. This he declares is clear, beyond all doubt, that Jesus Christ descended in soul after his death into the regions below, and concludes with these words: Quis ergo nisi infidelis negaverit fuisse apud inferos Christum? In this prison souls would not be detained unless they were indebted to divine justice, nor would salvation be preached to them unless they were in a state that was capable of receiving salvation.
blessings
“Then some of the scribes and pharisees said to him, “Teacher, we wish to see a sign from you.” He said to them in reply, “An evil and unfaithful generation seeks a sign, but no sign will be given it except the Sign of Jonah the prophet. Just as Jonah was in the belly of the great fish three days and three nights, so will the Son of Man be in the heart of the earth three days and three nights.” (Matthew 12: 38-40).
The scribes and pharisees did not believe that the miracles Jesus performed was proof of His being sent from heaven. Some of the scribes and pharisees thought Jesus performed these miracles by the power of satan. So they demanded a sign from Jesus.
In essence they said to Jesus; Look Jesus, the people are believing in you, but we are too smart, so give us a sign, but make it a good one, a real good one, so there can be no doubt, and then we too will believe in you.
Jesus did not point to any prior miracles; the healings, the exorcisms as proof of his being sent from heaven. Jesus told them “No sign shall be given, except, the Sign of Jonah”. So a sign will be given, only one sign, as proof to an unfaithful generation.
A sign is something that points or directs to, or symbolizes, or gives more information than itself. If we come across a one-way sign, we know to go only one way. It also relays more information; we don’t expect traffic to come from the opposite direction. Driving in the opposite direction will be wrong, and we can possibly get into an accident.
Jonah was thrown overboard and swallowed by a whale (or big fish). Jonah died in the belly of the whale. There is much debate about whether or not Jonah was indeed dead or alive. (Jonah 2:3) states; “from the midst of the netherworld (Hades, Sheol) I cried for help”.
The Old and New Testament both affirm that the soul of a dead person is in Sheol.
(Old Testament – Psalms 16:10) “Because you will not abandon my soul to the netherworld, nor will you suffer your faithful one to undergo corruption.”
(New Testament – Acts 2:27) “Because you will not abandon my soul to the netherworld, nor will you suffer your Holy One to see corruption”.
Blessings
The sign was that Jesus would be resurrected like Jonah…..
He referred to the miracle and sign of Jonah and prophesied that He would be resurrected also….
Jesus raised people from the dead in His time also to prove that He was God, just as He is doing in our time……
He was dead prior to Jonah 2:7 if I did not make that
clear…..
Blessings
As for Augustine that you agree……
a proof of a third place, or middle state of souls: for these spirits in prison, to whom Christ went to preach after his death, were not in heaven, nor yet in the hell of the damned; because heaven is no prison, and Christ did not go to preach to the damned. (Challoner) — St. Augustine, in his 99th epistle, confesses that this text is replete with difficulties. This he declares is clear, beyond all doubt, that Jesus Christ descended in soul after his death into the regions below, and concludes with these words: Quis ergo nisi infidelis negaverit fuisse apud inferos Christum? In this prison souls would not be detained unless they were indebted to divine justice, nor would salvation be preached to them unless they were in a state that was capable of receiving salvation.
TC,
Your position is not unreasonable, but if that position is accurate, I have not heard a reasonable explanation for the request for mercy for O.
Paul knew that nothing but our faith in Christ affects our salvation. So it would make no sense that he would pray for mercy for someone on THAT day (assumption is THAT day is judgement day).
Jonah did not die in the fish.
Uh, Dave, the Jonah’s life mentioned in 2.7 was not coming back to him, but flowing from him, hence he was dying.
Dave, Jesus delineates the extend of the comparison with Jonah for us: “For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth” (Matt. 12:40).
Whether Jonah died or not is not the point. The point surrounds time and place, not status of life.
Dave, even if Jonah died, What is there for us? I only see a sign of Messiah’s own experience.
TC,
Yes it is all about Jesus!!
My mother-in-law died a devout Catholic, a wonderful person that asked me to baptize her. I shared the Gospel with her many times. I could not baptize her because she continued to pray to Mary also……
Did she believe Jesus and have faith, I believe so, but her doctrine did not line up with mine. In my conscience I could not baptize her. I know it disappointed her…..
But she would not follow what her 75 year old husband who was agnostic all of his life did one year before she died. He accepted Christ and was baptized and is now 78 still believing Jesus……..
So you see the question was relevant about Paul praying for mercy for O. Is it applicable for my mother-in-law? I hope that God will find mercy for her…….
Does Jesus still rescue from the grave as He did with Lazarus in His time? Yes He does now in our time but miracles only come to those with faith, a faith that convinces Jesus……..
There were many widows in the time of the Old Testament famine. Elijah stayed with her and was provided for, Elijah prayed for her son and he was brought back from the dead. It is impossible to please God without faith.
Blessings…..
Dave, to keep from littering TC’s blog, I posted my own answer to the Jonah question on my blog.
He was not dead, but very much alive – unless you count David too has having dead several times.
Further in one comment, you say that he was dead prior to 2.7, and now, he is not alive in 2.7.
Dave, your mother-law’s faith/fate rests in the hands of God.
So you see the question was relevant about Paul praying for mercy for O. Is it applicable for my mother-in-law? I hope that God will find mercy for her…….
One could only wish, as Paul obviously did.
I agree that we cannot box God in, but there’re some things that we can know truly though not exhaustively.
Dave, do you believe that a lady who “believe[d] Jesus and ha[d] faith” is not saved because “her doctrine did not line up with mine”, or because her only baptism was (I presume) a Catholic one? That to me is a far more worrying aspect to your thinking than anything you have said about prayer for the dead. There is nothing in the Bible about salvation by assent to correct doctrine, or by the work of believer’s baptism, but a lot about anyone who believes in Jesus being saved.
Please read the additional posts for those scholars that believe that Jonah died in the fish…..
Blessings……..
Again, McGee, makes a very sensible response to that argument:
“It is characteristic of the Hebrew language to give the full account of something and then go back and emphasize that which is important.
This same technique is used in Genesis concerning the creation. We are given the six days of creation, and then God goes back and gives a detailed account of the creation of man, adding a great deal. To attempt
to build an assumption on the little word “then” is very fallacious. It simply means that now Jonah is going to tell us the story in detail; he is going to tell us what really happened inside the fish” (McGee,pg35)
He further makes this comment about when Jonah actually prayed:
“But if I know human nature at all, Jonah didn’t wait very long to pray this prayer. When that man found himself in the condition he was in, you can be sure of one thing: he immediately went to prayer before God. In fact, I think he prayed on the way down, and by the time he got
into the fish’s tummy, it was time to say amen”. (McGee, pg33)
In Verse 4, Jonah states he was “cast out of thy sight”. That by itself could mean he was simply out of God’s sight in the fish. However, the rest of the verse says, “yet I will look again toward thy holy temple”. Jonah is appearing to say that he knew he was going to die and that God would
raise him up again.
In Verse 5-6, Jonah states that, “the waters compassed me about, even to the soul”. Further he reveals that seaweed was wrapped around his head. All this is happening as he is slowly sinking to the bottom of
the ocean. Some believe this account is of his state in the fish’s belly, but it could well be describing his sinking to the bottom of the sea before the fish swallowed him.
The phrase, “earth with her bars,” is Elizabethan English and this was a way death was spoken of in day the King James Bible was translated. There is no other way to interpret the phrase except to mean, “bars of death”.
Verse 2 tells us he was in the fish when he prayed. Verse 7 tells us he was not dead. The text does not say he died (merely that he was banished), and to say otherwise is to read into it. He was alive when he was in the fish, or he would not have prayed. The type is that he went a place from which people are not expected to return and after three days returned.
Peter, I was looking the use of Sheol in Psalms, and unless Dave is willing to allow that David died – once for every time he used Sheol – then we have to see Sheol as the pit of despair. It could very well be that Jonah was near death (2.7), as anyone without God usually is.