You don’t want to choose a Bible to read publicly, only to leave the hearer confused or even worse, misunderstood: “For our conversation is in heaven…” (Phil. 3:20, KJV). “Conversation” may have worked in 1611 (NKJV has “our citizenship”).
A few more examples:
I can’t tell you how many times I’ve heard people, reading publicly, struggle to pronounce “propitiation” at Romans 3:25 (someone might suggest they practice the word privately first). But why not go for something like “a sacrifice of atonement” or even better, “a sacrifice for sin”?
I can’t tell the last time I heard, “I reprove you!” Yet, even modern English translations still carry it (see 1 Tim. 3:16, in NET Bible, ESV). Why not “rebuke” or something like that?
Now I’m still pondering “brotherly affection/love” (ESV, NET) or “mutual affection” (TNIV, NRSV).
Or maybe your hearers are use to “propitiation” and the like? If so, ignore the above and hold on to that particular Bible.
For Romans 3:25 they should say `expiation` or `mercy seat` as that is what hilasterion means.
Andrew, “expiation” or “mercy seat” are not enough. “Expiation” is only one side of the coin.
As for “mercy seat,” What is behind it?
Sorry but `mercy seat` is what the Ark of the Covenant represented when the High Priest went into this part of the Temple. God was considered to be expressing his Mercy at this place. If you wish to explore further go to relevant Commentaries such as J.D.G. Dunn. Why `expiation` this is the appropriate explanation of what the mercy seat did
it expiated the sin of the people of Israel. To think otherwise is to possibly misunderstand 1 C.E. Jewish cultic understandings of the Temple. I recommend you read N.T. Wright`s book ` Justification` then you will understand what I have written
This one is funny because I constantly churn between TNIV, ESV, and NRSV. Then, I used the NLT for our public reading this past Sunday as well. Overall, I am still a fan of the TNIV for public reading and study. It is my hope the CBT will have something extremely close to the TNIV in 2011 and then Zondervan would put out a WIDE MARGIN Bible I could use for study.
Ah, those Latinate KJV phrases.
Just thinking of all those Reformed folk over the centuries quoting the KJV, which reverts back to the Vulgate so often when it has vocabulary problems, makes me smile.
“Let the reader understand” is an entirely appropriate order, since none of his listeners will if he uses the KJV. We read Ps 73:13-20 in Sunday School recently, and I thought we might as well read the Hebrew and completely befuddle the the class.
There are NT manuscripts existing where one can tell a reader did in fact prep the text for public reading.
As for “reprove” and the NET, that’s a good example that they still have work to be done. The 2005 first edition uses “reprove” in five verses apparently, and the two instances in Proverbs are particularly obtuse and “biblish”, aka KJV/RSV sounding.
But that Timothy quote. Isn’t it 2 Tim 4:2? And doesn’t it use “rebuke” in the same sentence for another Greek word? Elegcho and epitimao are seemingly very close in meaning, as various translations show by alternately using “convict” and “rebuke” for each.
Let’s face it: The KJV is with us, even when we think it isn’t.
Apprentice, you can’t go wrong with the NLT and TNIV.
The NRSV needs some updating to take care of some rather archaic and strange expressions.
Chuck,
Reformed folks are too biblish and theological. They like to see and hear certain words.
The NET supprised me, given it’s so fresh.
Yes, it seems like the KJV influence will continue to outlive us all.
Familiarity (aka reading your Bible a lot) also goes a long way because you can kind of tell who reads their Bible and who doesn’t.
TC,
That’s why I feel comfortable sticking with the TNIV (hope the NIV2011 is just as good) as my main Bible. It’s one that I would feel comfortable reading devotionally, studying with, or reading aloud, especially for those unfamiliar with Biblish. At the same time, the TNIV maintains a level of dignity for public reading – it’s dignified, without being stuffy or archaic.
I really like the overall accuracy of the HCSB and NET, but they still seem clunky in places, and I don’t necessarily find them any more accurate, on balance, than the TNIV.
Peter,
Let’s say you’re invited to a city council meeting to give a Scripture reading, not church folk, but unchurched, What then?
Tim,
I hoping for the same with the NIV 2011, though a few gender changes here and there, which seems to be the biggie.
But you’re right about the TNIV. I just love it!
This is why I think there is a double learning curve for formal equivalence. They not only manage to be more “literal”, but nearly all of them insist on choosing archaic language. So you need to learn the archaic English on top of theological terms.
I believe that propitiation is good but I’m biased on that one.
Jeff
I’m good with the TNIV! Hope the 2011 continues the accuracy of this translation.
Why `expiation` this is the appropriate explanation of what the mercy seat did
it expiated the sin of the people of Israel. To think otherwise is to possibly misunderstand 1 C.E. Jewish cultic understandings of the Temple. I recommend you read N.T. Wright`s book ` Justification` then you will understand what I have written.
Andrew,
I’m aware of the argumentss surrounding the hilasterion. Wright combines both ideas of expiation and propitiation, hence, “the place of mercy” in his “Romans” in “Paul for Everyone series.”
We simply cannot opt for expiation alone.
Jeff,
I’m on the otherside of “propitiation.” It should be footnoted. My take.
Iris,
I’ve become one with my TNIV.
The concept that one would simply study texts silently is largely anachronistic. In the Greco-Roman world aurality and textuality were intertwined. When one read, one read aloud. And texts were written to be HEARD.
Thus any translation project which ignores or sidelines the liturgical usefulness of what it is doing has failed in its mission in a fundamental way.
Scott,
I’m interested: What’s your translation of choice?
TC writes: I’m interested: What’s your translation of choice?
Basically the NRSV, this was occasioned by ecclesiastical shifts in my experience. Before I read the NIV, which I still think has sense of simple elegance in it word choice .
I do think, for a formal equivalence Bible, the NRSV is the best overall Bible for liturgical and study use which has a contemporary feel.
Scott, I do like the NRSV a lot. If it weren’t for some of its archaic and awkward terms, I probably would be using it more.
I never really liked the NIV until the TNIV, my text of choice.
TC – Yes, it seems like the KJV influence will continue to outlive us all.
I think that’s good. I think the pervasiveness of the KJV in culture (even below the surface) is good because it means there is language that we recognize as Biblical. I like that.
I’m part of a movement that is KJV only, and I understand some of the arguments for it, I agree with other things said here, that the Scripture has to be understood. I was just talking about that last night. I work with a couple campus ministry groups, and we use the ESV there. I love the ESV.
I don’t know the best answer to this situation. Some of the translations have a bias that gives preference to a theological view over the original text, and that’s bad. Ultimately (to me), the most important thing is finding the best, most accurate translation of the original text that people can understand, not finding a translation that makes us happy.
Ultimately (to me), the most important thing is finding the best, most accurate translation of the original text that people can understand, not finding a translation that makes us happy.
Brad, easier said than done since we’ve been cultured to use certain terms and such have affected the Bibles we use.
TC-
Taken from the updated CEB website is a comparison of same texts from CEB, NRSV and NIV, here Rom. 3:22-24.Interesting–and good that it gets away from reproducing the traditional theological vocabulary but tries to make the meaning more accessible.
Romans 3:22-24
Common English Bible (CEB)
God’s righteousness comes through the faithfulness of Jesus Christ for all who have faith in him. There’s no distinction. All have sinned and fall short of God’s glory, but all are treated as righteous freely by his grace, because of a ransom that was paid by Christ Jesus.
New Revises Standard Version (NRSV)
But now, irrespective of law, the righteousness of God has been disclosed, and is attested by the law and the prophets, the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ* for all who believe. For there is no distinction, since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God; they are now justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,
New International Version (NIV)
This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.
Scott W,
Thanks for this. Looks good so far. No objections here. Any footnotes? What have they done with sarx,, assuming you have access to Romans.
TC-
No, there is no access to the full translations of Romans as of yet, but here is one example of what they did with sarx in Galatians. They will probably use a broad semantic range to render this term, which I advocate.
(Genesis is downloadable now. I skimmed over a few chapters and the translations is superb! The list of OT/Apocrypha translators is cream of the crop and I predict the CEB OT and Apocrypha will be excellent.)
Galatians 5:17
Common English Bible (CEB) New Revised Standard Version (NRSV)
I say be guided by the Spirit and you won’t carry out your selfish desires.
Live by the Spirit, I say, and do not gratify the desires of the flesh.
New International Version (NIV)
So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature.
Scott W,
But I obsessed with “flesh” for sarx in Paul. Still favor that “Spirit vs Flesh” match-up.
I’ll have to check out Genesis, then. So looking for the complete NT in the Fall.