NEW LEAVEN

To answer the question: Both.

Dunno, really. We are tempted to classify the things which we do not understand with a certain prejudice. In doing so, we look for ‘other’ answers.

For example, I had a good friend which snapped, mentally, a last year. He started speaking in different voices, claiming all manner of torments, ills, and prophecies. Divine missions, divine voices, divine status.

His mother, an immigrant from the Dom. Rep. and some of his family believe that it was possession. Was it? The meds calmed him down.

Perhaps demon possession is a mythos we have given to something we simply don’t understand. When Christ healed the demon possessed man, we can assure ourselves that he was healed, but did Christ come to correct all of our superstitions? No.

I guess, T.C., my answer is,

It is what it is, and I don’t fear whatever it is

TC-
The demonic (and he angelic!)are real;I’ve had experience of both.The problem is that this is all sensationalized to the point where there is much misunderstanding and distortion, to the point where people have an unhealthy/unbalanced view of this matter or there is a knee-jerk reaction against this reality.It requires a level head,a steady heart and spiritual discernment.I work with people with psychiatric diagnoses and I tell that the Devil gets blamed for a lot of stuff that’s not his doing directly.

The point is to live faithful lives (prayer,confession,Eucharist,etc), keep away from dabbling in the Occult, and exercise your authority as a believer in Christ. We are to be Jesus-focued, not demon- or evil-focused!

I would also answer both. I think that until the end of human history dawns, Satan and his minions will be at work, a part of which is possession. The problem for me is discerning between the psychotic/purely mental that would appear demonic and the truly possessed. I’ve never known anyone personally that was possessed, but I don’t doubt that it still happens. Perhaps because most of humanity is enslaved to sin already, possession would serve less of a purpose.

On the other hand, I have had an angelic experience before. It was quite unusual.

Yup, both. It happened in the past and it happens now. I’m quite sure that you’ve encountered more than a few people possessed or oppressed by demons in your days without realizing it. I’ve encountered many. I’ve even cast out a few demons and have seen dozens cast out by others.

I’ll ask this of Joel and Jason: do you guys think that mental illness and demonic possession/oppression are mutually exclusive? Perhaps the one (demonic possession/oppression) gives rise to the other (mental illness).

Nick: I think that’s entirely possible; probable, even. It would at least be a plausible explanation for many in such conditions that are beyond the help of medicine or therapy. At the same time, I am very cautious about automatically assuming that demons are behind every illness. I think most of the time illness is the byproduct of living in a fallen world. Like most things, each instance would require discernment.

I agree with Nick and Dan, it’s both, even here in the states though less prevelent than overseas among the primitive tribal groups. Here it is mostly among those who practice witchcraft and or wicca, those who abuse drugs, pornography and the like, those deeply involved in the occult, the new age religion (channeling, seances, palm reading, tarrot cards, etc) that’s all demonic and makes them more sucseptable to demonic oppression if not possession.

we met a gal just this summer who was heavily involved in witchcraft from child birth (ritual satanic abuse) and she was full of demons and would scream all night long as she would be tortured and tormented by the demons (kind of like the gaderene demonic in the gospels). The poor girl never had a chance and was in complete bondange.

Yup, it’s real. To deny it is to deny reality.

I wholeheartedly agree with Nick and brian, and I generally agree with Jason. It’s been my experience, however, that demonic oppression is more prevalent than most would think. For example, I think unforgiveness is a red-carpet invitation. There are many others mentioned above.I can almost guarantee you have encountered someone who is oppressed by evil spirits, from time to time, I think we all are, but most people learn to live with it (which is not the best solution, obviously). I think if the stigma of the demonic were done away with, the church would be much healthier – spiritually and physically. Our battle, after all, is not with flesh and blood, and we spend most, if not all, of our time battling flesh and blood.

I agree with Brian just above. It is more prevalent than I want to believe it is. It presents “untidiness” and that bothers me. However, I believe the oppression believers experience is often demonic. Possession on the other hand is experienced by unbelievers, since the Greater One lives in us and the demonic is powerless to tie Him up. The enemy can, and often does, oppress and hang around us (believers) because we do not choose the things of God (like being unforgiving) etc…

I urge balance here — we are not victims of the demonic. 1 John 5 says otherwise. So to always suspect a demon is to be focused on the opposition instead of the glories of Christ Jesus our Lord.

Jason: I wholeheartedly agree. I’m not the type to say that a demon is behind every sickness or problem in someone’s life but I definitely don’t seek natural explanations for everything I see either. Discernment is key.

TC, I think spirits and spiritual problems can readily cause physical ones. “Misdiagnosis” may be a bit harsh because it could very well be the physical diagnosis, but where the cause is spiritual, I think the only certain cure is by the Great Physician. I’m certainly not opposed to medical treatments, but medicine doesn’t cure spiritual problems.

Nick,

“Discernment is key.”

Absolutely.

Perhaps we’ve been cultured to mislabel demonic activities. Our Western culture has pretty much surrendered to the almighty god of Science – simple mental disorders and their manifestation, whether from drugs and so on.

A misdiagnosis?

TC,

I have wondered about this myself for years. We tend to think the fact that medicine seems to relieve certain symptoms in these cases is “proof” that no demonic activity is involved. But is that really proof? “Proof” is often slippery because even in the case of medical science, there are enough unknown factors that even the hardcore “naturalist” (if he or she is honest) has to admit a level of uncertainty in causal relations.

I’ve never encountered a possessed person (as far as I know), but I had encounters with demonic entities many times when I was young (and my parents and siblings did too). It missed me up huge. Got me involved in the occult and the like for quite a while.

TC: Yes, it’s been the only one and it didn’t involve glowing-white beings or anything, but an overwhelming presence that I and my friends knew was angelic (as much as you can “know” without seeing). We had been discussing angelic and demonic forces and I believe it was God’s way of assuring us that his angels are about us and are about his work. It was quite an amazing thing. What’s kind of weird is that we were jogging at night when it happened!

There’s a documentary coming out. FURIOUS LOVE http://www.furiouslovethemovie.com

You might want to check out the book The Dark Sacrament which is a bunch of stories from two unrelated exorcists, one from the Catholic church and one from the Anglican church. It actually has a blurb from Ben Witherington on the back.

Bryan L

A few random thoughts and opinions that are probably already given in this discussion, but what the heck:

First, “both”.

Then, I believe some/most mental illness is a result of our physical bodies being subjects of the Fall, living in a cursed vessel; an illness of the brain like there are illnesses of the rest of the body.

However, the brain is the seat of the free will. When it is compromised, accompanied with just plain sin nature, it most certainly opens the body up to demonic interference.

I once went along to hear an official exorcist from the Anglican Church (such things do exist) speak on this topic.

He had been his position for about 12 years, during which it he had travelled all over the country dealing with all sorts of troubled people.

In all that time he had – in his opinion – encountered a genuine episode of demonic possession .. twice.

So yes, I do believe in such things, but do feel that genuine examples of this are rare – and coming from South East Asia I’ve seen all sorts of things that were troubling on the surface but tended to have other causes.

There are very few good and balanced resources out there on this topic, one of the best is from a lecture Vern Poythress did at WTS – available on the WTS resources site.

If you are people who believe that the word of God is just that, his word of truth, then there is no other conclusion other than these demonic entities are real spirits. Jesus healed those with ligitimate illnesses and he also cast out demons that caused physical illnesses. If anyone wanted first hand proof as to their existance, just wait for the tribulation period, because there will be demon activity gallor during that time! For those who don’t believe in their existance, Satan and his angels have accomplished their desception. For as Paul stated:

“Put on the full armor of God so that you can take your stand against the devil’s schemes.For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.